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HOUSE OF COMMONS.

THURSDAY, May 21.

This being the day appointed for Mr. Wilberforce's motion refpecting peace, at 4 o'clock there being only 28 Members prefent, the House of course adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

FRIDAY, May 22.

MILITIA ARTILLERY BILL.

The Order of the Day, for the fecond reading of the Militia Artillery Bill having been read,

The Earl of Radnor rofe, and stated his objections to the Bill at length. His Lordfhip began with noticing the object of the Bill, its avowed principle, and the peculiar circumstances from which it originated. He faid, in a war of the fingular nature of the prefent, it undoubtedly was neceflary that the army fhould be well fupplied with artillery-men, and that every proper means of training men to the service of the guns fhould be cultivated, with a view to affist and reinforce the artillery corps. The conftitutional troops of the country, the Militia, had been looked to with a view to that object. A meeting of militia officers, his Lordship, informed the House, had been held, when the subject was taken into confideration, and certain refolutions had been come to, the effect of tendering to Government their affiftance in respect to training men to the artillery fervice. He confeffed that he had been one amongst other militia colonels, who had concurred in those refolutions, and he was now forry that he had joined in that concurrence, because he had not been aware to what extent of construction their offers would be carried, and the manner in which advantage would be taken of them. In every regiment of militia, the colonel, if he felt a proper zeal for the fervice, took pains to train a certain number of men to the guns. As a colonel of militia, he had thirty men at a time in training for that purpose, and by the authority of the Bill, as foon as he had made the men equal to all the points of artillery duty, the whole of the thirty might be feduced from him, without his having the power to ftop any one of them who applied for his difcharge. When they were gone, the next thirty might be taken from him in the fame manner, by which the colonels and officers of the militia would be converted into mere drillVOL. III. ferjeants

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Terjeans for the fupply of the standing army. This his Lordfhip complained of as a very unhandfome return to the militia officers, for their zeal for the defence of the country; and he owned he felt it perfonally as a peculiar hardship, as he had Taft year been authorifed by the county of which he was Lord Lieutenant (Berkshire) to make an offer to Government of forty men trained to the artillery, which offer his Majesty's minifters thought proper to refufe. Another view in which the Bill appeared to him to be likely to operate in a way highly injurious to the militia, and which, from the critical circumftances of the times, he thought extremely impolitic, was, the deftructive effect it must neceffarily have on the difcipline of the militia regiments. If a commanding officer difapproved of the conduct of any private in his regiment, or that private was confcious that he had done fomething to merit either cenfure or punishment, he had nothing to do but to fay he was bred to the fea, or wished to enroll himself in the royal corps of artillery, and immediately obtain his discharge; for his commanding officer had no option, but was obliged to give it him on his demand. His Lordfhip reafoned at confiderable length on this particular, and the claufe being compulfory, as it ftruck directly at the difcipline of the militia, and must neceffarily weaken the authority of the colonel or commanding officer, and leffen the refpect in which the men had been accustomed to hold him. He next difcuffed the effect of fuffering one in ten of all the privates to be difcharged into the corps of artillery, as it might upon the whole of the militia amount to fo large a number, that would very feriously thin the ranks and take away from the ftrength of that conftitutional force, and render it not only lefs refpectable, but lefs adequate to the internal defence of the country. In refpect to the claufe enacting that his Majefty's Lieutenants and Deputy-lieutenants refpectively, of the county to which the regiment out of which the private men fhall be difcharged, belong, and alfo the colonel or commanding officer, and every commiffioned officer, duly commiffioned by the commanding officers of fuch regiment, fhall be empowered, by beat of drum, to raise volunteers to be enrolled as private men, in the room of those difcharged, his Lordship objected to it on various grounds, and complained in very pointed terms of the claufe which enacts that the colonel or commanding officer fhould be entitled to receive ten guineas to be applied in providing other private men to replace thofe difcharged. His Lordfhip faid, it indirectly conveyed a very unpleasant infinuation against the commanding officer, and put him into a fituation in which militia colonels ought not in his opinion to be placed. His Lordship

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ftated a great variety of animadverfions on thefe and other topics which the claufes of the Bill fuggefted, declaring his ftrong objection to thofe claufes he had noticed, which would induce him to oppofe the Bill. He faid he had ever underftood that the militia was confidered to ftand in fome respects higher than the regular army, and in others lower; but this Bill appeared likely to put the militia much below the army, to weaken its ftrength, and to degrade and wound the feelings of the officers. He fhould therefore object to the Bill's being read a fecond time.

Lord Grenville, in a few words, affured the Noble Earl, that no idea of wounding the feelings of the commanding officers. of the militia had been entertained by those who had been concerned in framing the Bill, and he fhould be extremely forry if the Noble Earl, who fo peculiarly, and in fo honourable a manner distinguished himfelf by his zeal and attention to the fervice, as a militia colonel, should really imagine that he was at all degraded, or in any degree deprived of his authority as a commanding officer by the Bill. With regard to the militia standing higher in fome refpects than the army, and lower in others, he knew of no fuch diftin&tion. Both were equally entitled to ftand high in the opinion of the country; nor ought any distinction to be made between them. His Lordship fpoke of the great importance of the object of the Bill, which went to take feafaring men out of the militia, and fend them on board the navy, and to aflift and ftrengthen the artillery corps, by enabling fuch of the militia-men as chofe to enroll themfelves in the artillery, to require their difcharge of their commanding officer. With regard to the first of thefe objects, the Noble Earl had not urged much objection, and therefore it was unnceffary for him to enter into arguments to prove what he believed their Lordships in general would readily concur in, that under circumftances of fuch uncommon exigency as the prefent, it was of greater advantage to the Public, that feafaring men fhould ferve on board the navy, than in the ranks of the militia. With refpect to that part of the Bill which had for its object the authorifing and directing colonels and commanding officers of the militia, to grant their discharge to fuch men as chofe to require it for the purpofe of enrolling themselves in the royal corps of artillery, he really faw it in a very different light from that in which the Noble Earl had viewed it. The number of men who would probably require their difcharge, he did not imagine would be any thing like what the Noble Earl had conjectured; and if the principle was right, to ftrengthen the corps of artillery, by felecting men from the militia, after the ratio of only one in ten, furely it

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could not be improper to carry that principle into effect by the most certain means. His Lordship faid a word or two in reply to the feveral objections that had been taken by Lord Radnor to the different claufes, and concluded with declaring that he fhould give his fupport to the Bill.

The Marquis Townshend faid, it would hardly be fuspected that he was not a friend to the militia, having had the honour of first fuggesting the plan of that conftitutional force, and been not a little inftrumental in carrying it into execution, in fpite of a great variety of objections, founded upon false notions of its principles. If he faw any thing in the prefent Bill, that really tended to weaken the militia, or to leffen the refpect due to its commanding officers, he would most readily concur with the Noble Earl in oppofing its being read a fecond time; but it really did not appear to him to be liable to the objections that had been urged against it. The Noble Earl had laid great ftrefs on the circumftance of the militia officers having thofe men taken from them, whom they had taught the service of the guns, and had faid, it was actually converting the militia officers into drill-ferjeants. That was not the cafe; but furely if the militia could be applied to the training up of men for the artillery, it would be applied to a very useful purpose. The Marquis ftated several other reafons for his fupporting the Bill.

Lord Romney expreffed himself to be concerned to have heard fuch arguments from the Noble Marquis, who he had expected would have withheld his approbation from a Bill which in his mind was calculated to undermine the whole system of the militia. His Lordship faid, he thought it incumbent on him to take part in the debate, as he had been the person who had brought in the Bill in the Houfe of Commons, for reducing into one Act of Parliament the militia laws; and as a friend to the militia, he could not fit filent, when a Bill was under difcuf fion which departed fo violently as the prefent Bill did from the original principle of the militia. He thought the Noble Earl entitled to the thanks of every man who was a friend to the militia, for having ftated his objections to the prefent Bill, with fo much force and ability; to thofe reafons he heartily fubfcribed, and he muft fay that not the leaft objectionable part of the Bill was that which directed the colonels and commanding officers to grant difcharges to their men when required, for the purpose of enrolling themfelves in the corps of artillery without limitation, for fo he confidered the operation of the Bill would prove. He declared he was forry to fee a militia Bill brought into Parliament, because he had obferved, that every fuch Bill had departed by little and little from the

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original principle of the militia. This Bill was undoubtedly a more violent departure from that principle than any preceding one, and threatened to undermine the militia fyftem altogether; he thould therefore hold it his duty to oppofe it.

Earl Spencer rofe to fupport the Bill, as a measure calculated effentially to conduce to the benefit and advantage of the public fervice, at a time when every thing that could be done to further that important end was highly neceffary to be attended to. His Lordship declared, he was himself a fincere friend to the militia; he had ferved in it feveral years, indeed till other important duties called him from it, and if he thought the prefent Bill tended to injure the militia, he should himself object to it; but he was perfuaded it did the militia no injury, and would do the navy and royal artillery effential fervice. His Lordship urged the great importance of contributing to the better manning of the navy, by every poffible means, and after a few more arguments in favour of the Bill, declared he should give his vote for it.

The Earl of Hardwicke also spoke in favour of the Bill. His Lordship ftated what had paffed at the meeting of, militia colonels, to which the Noble Earl who opened the debate had alluded, and faid, it was upon their fuggeftion and offer to train men to the guns in their respective regiments, that the prefent Bill had been owing. At that meeting the refolutions propofed, with refpect to the propriety of offering to aflift Government at the prefent arduous crifis, had paffed unanimously, because it was confidered as a fit means of evincing the fteady loyalty and firm determination of the militia to conduce by every means in their power to the general defence of the country. His Lordship faid, he had not altered his opinion upon the subject fince he delivered it at the meeting to which he alluded. He approved of the present Bill, and it fhould have his fupport.

The Marquis of Buckingham faid, he had endeavoured to prove himself a friend to the militia, and had spent many years of his life in that fervice, and no man could be more thoroughly convinced than he was, of its effential ufe to the country. Impreffed with this opinion, he could not but be confcious that the militia and the Public were highly indebted to the Noble Marquis, who fpoke lately, for the very great affiduity and attention he had fo honourably fhewn to that fervice; but he could not help differing with him entirely in refpect to the prefent Bill, which he thought highly prejudicial to the militia, and not a little difrefpectful to its officers. His Lordship went into a very ample difcuffion of the principle of the Bill, its avowed objects, and the means it held

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