had spoken fecond in the debate, that it was by no means the wifh of the individual immediately interefted in the Bill, to have any thing done with it contrary to the fenfe of their Lordships, from any perfonal confideration to him. His Grace faid, he fuppofed that every invention for which a patent was applied for, refted on its own merits, and it must be allowed that the merits of one invention were neceffarily extremely different from thofe of others. The invention which was the fubject of the prefent Bill, was of great importance and great public advantage. It had coft the patentee, in the process of it, an immenfe fum, the whole of which he was as yet out of pocket. Patents had been granted undoubtedly for inventions of infinitely lefs importance and advantage to the Public. Mr. Boulton, for inftance, who was known to be a very able man in particular branches of mechanics, had obtained a patent for making a spring to a buckle, which certainly was ingenious, but extremely trifling and infignificant in point of importance and utility, compared with the invention under their Lordships confideration, one great object of which, among a variety of others, was to convert coal into coke, which coke fold for more when made, than the coal from which it was made coft originally. Another matter to be confidered was, a long process must be gone through before the patentee could derive any profit, large ovens were to be built, various registers to be conftructed, and much time must confequently be spent, and confiderable expences incurred, before any return could be obtained. The cafe was very different with many other inventions for which patents had been granted. With refpect to Mr. Boulton's fpring to a buckle, when the Bill for his patent had received the royal affent, the invention was upon fale, and returned a profit next day. With regard to the importance of this invention, his Grace faid it was felf-evident, and had been acknowledged wherever it was tried. One was at work at Brentford, in a very extenfive manufactory, which had been greatly admired for its principle. Another had been adopted at Chelsea Water-works. It was true it had been left off, but not from any fault that was found with the engine, but for other and very different reafons. With regard to the objections stated by the Noble Lord who opened the debate, the argument of that Noble Lord, and of the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolfack, went the length of declaring that the House ought in no poflible cafe whatever to interfere in favour of patentees. As to what had fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolfack, relative to what happened before him in Chancery, refpecting Argand's lamp, he did not prefume to differ on points of law from such high authority,

but

but he could not think the decree given in that cafe was quite neceffary, because the lamp which the Noble and Learned Lord had stated to have been brought from Paris, was likewile of Argand's invention, and the principle was not explained till the fpecification was delivered in upon oath under the patent. Nor could he on the fudden agree, that the patent for Scotland, on the subject of the invention protected by the Bill before their Lordships, was illegal. If that were fo clearly the cafe, as the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to imagine, it ftruck him that it would have been discovered before; but that circumstance might be inquired into in the Committee, and the facts as to the utility of the invention, the amount of the money expended by the Field Marshal, and the lofs fuftained, be established and proved.

Lord Hawkesbury faid he would confine himself to one point; he felt it his duty to oppofe the Bill, but on no other principle than that general one on which he oppofed every patent Bill in the first instance. He thought them mifchievous in the extreme, because they damped and checked the industry of the English fubjects, at the fame time that they benefited foreign countries, Scotland, and Ireland, from the moment that they paffed. The only reftriction they impofed was on the people. of this ifland. The bad policy of fuch a principle was obvious. His Lordship faid, applications had often been made to him at the Board at which he had the honour to fit, to beg him to suppress the specifications of the principles of inven tions, and keep them fecret. The people of Birmingham, in particular, had frequently applied, and faid the making the fpecification acceffible, operated in favour of foreign artists, and was peculiarly injurious to them. The lawyers had uniformly given their opinion, that the fpecifications could not be fuppreffed, becaufe, if that were the cafe, it would be impoffible to decide upon any trials of questions that arofe upon allegations of invafions of the patent rights of any man who had obtained a patent for his invention or discovery. While therefore the copy of a specification could be obtained for a fhilling, the evils he had stated against the industry of this country, would continue; and therefore, as a friend to the arts, and to English ingenuity, he fhould hold it wife, and matter of found policy, to put an end to any further grants of patents, and on that principle he fhould feel it his duty to oppofe the Bill.

The Earl of Guildford observed, that the Noble Lord who fpoke laft had kept his word, and confined himfelf to a general objection to the principle of all patents. That, however, he conceived was not the question before their Lordships; they were to confider. as matters stood at prefent, whether, in the particular inftance under confideration, the patent might

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be prolonged, under the circumftances that were stated, and would be proved and established in a Committee? It mattered not, in fact, to the prefent Bill, whether the principles laid down by the Noble Lord who spoke laft, were right or not. He would afk the Noble Lord who opened the debate, whether he really apprehended that any commercial mifchief would refult from locking up the prefent invention in the hands of the inventor? With regard to the Scotch patent being illegal, that might be inquired into in the Committee; but he fhould scarcely think that the Attorney General, and the other law officers of the Crown, and the Lord Chancellor, would have fuffered the great feal to have been put to an illegal patent.

The Earl of Carlife faid, he would take up a very few minutes of their Lordships time. The only argument that had fallen from a Noble and Learned Lord that had received no answer was, if the House paffed the prefent Bill, their Lordships would be infurmountably hampered whenever another application for the extenfion of a patent came before them; and had in fact better repeal the Act of James the First at once, and trust to the Attorney and Solicitor General and Keeper of the Great Seal, who were, and would be, refponfible for all the patents they put the great feal to. The Earl faid, he could anfwer this argument by declaring, that wherever it could be made out that an invention was of effential service to the Public, and that the patentee had not been remunerated, but, on the contrary, had been confiderably out of pocket; he would uniformly confent to a prolongation of his patent. A circumftance peculiarly in favour of the prefent application, in his judgment, was, that it was just on the eve of expiring. He thought, where a patent had feven or more years to run, and the patentee applied to have it prolonged, on the ground that he feared he fhould be a lofer at the end of the firft fourteen years (as had been the cafe with the prolongation of the term of a patent applied for and rejected laft feffion); it was fair to fay, You are premature in your conclufion-it may turn out otherwife-at least, we will not grant your application, till the fact be better afcertained. In the prefent inftance, the patent was within a few months of its expiration; and the fact, that the patentee was a confiderable lofer, could be established, as a matter not of mere fpeculation and chance, but as a certainty unqueftionable. Lord Carlisle alfo called on Lord Auckland, to know whether he really thought any commercial mifchief would be the confequence of prolonging the patent of the Field Marshal, in the manner applied for under the prefent Bill. Lord Auckland replied, that he could not adopt the idea of the Noble Lord (Lord Harrowby), who had spoken first in

answer

answer to him, and had argued it to be a favourable circumftance in the present cafe, that the patent was in the fourteenth year, and nearly expiring: He continued to think, that the nearer the Public were arrived to the enjoyment of what was to become public property, the more cautious should be the Legiflature in confenting to poftpone a beneficial right. On the other hand, he did not infift, as a Noble Duke (the, Duke of Richmond) feemed to attribute to him or to the Chancellor, that the House fhould in no poffible cafe interfere in favour of patentees. Special cafes might exist: But he had not heard of any special circumstances in the prefent cafe.

The two Noble Earls (Lords Guildford and Carlisle) had called on him to fay, whether he really apprehended that any commercial mischief could refult from locking up the prefent invention in the hands of the inventor? He was not prepared to fay that there could. But he conceived that much commercial mischief might refult from a bad precedent, which would open the door to every application on the flighteft grounds. Upon the whole, he must take the fenfe of the Houfe; because he wished to mark his decided opinion against a measure which he could not reconcile to his fense of law, jufftice, policy, commercial expediency, confiftency, and decorum.

The Lord Chancellor left the woolfack, not, he faid, certainly to enter again into argument, but to ask leave to change the motion, which was, as it ftood at prefent," that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole Houfe;" whereas, he found that the ufual practice with all fuch Bills was, "that they be committed."

On the question the House divided,

The Speaker having taken the chair, took the earliest opportunity of returning thanks to the Houfe, for the indulgence which had been fhewn to him on Monday, on account of his indifpofition; and expreffed his regret that he should have been the accidental caufe of any delay in the progress of public bufinefs.

Mr. Whitbread gave notice, that he should at fome future day, move for leave to bring in a Bill for the purpofe of regu

lating a mode of obtaining returns from parith officers, fo as to afcertain the quantity of grain which fhall have been fown. in the kingdom at Midfummer next.

Mr. Eaft moved, that the Bill for preventing the removal of poor perfons until they fhall become actually chargeable, be taken into further confideration on Monday next.-Ordered.

TRADE TO AND FROM INDIA.

Mr. Secretary Dundas faid, that in confequence of the number of fhips British built, now in the fervice of Government, which before had been in the India trade, it was neceflary fome measures should be fpeedily adopted to fupply the defects on this head; he would therefore move, That the House do refolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take the fame into confideration.

The House refolved itfelf accordingly, when a refolution to the following effect paffed the Committee, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that goods be imported and exported to and from India and China in certain fhips not British built."

TROOPS FROM THE CONTINENT.

Colonel Maitland moved, That there be laid before the House an account of the number of effective men belonging to the infantry laft returned into this country, as far as the return can be made up.-Ordered.

HIS MAJESTY'S MESSAGE ON THE PRINCE OF WALES'S

ESTABLISHMENT, &c.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the Order of the Day for taking into confideration the Meflage from his Majefty, relative to the eftablishment of their Royal Highneffes the Prince and Princefs of Wales, and to the liquidation of the debts of the Prince.

Mr. Huffey moved, that the feventeen Reports of the Commiffioners appointed to inquire into, confider, and report on the ftate of the foreft and other lands belonging to the Crown, be referred to the Committee upon this meffage.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he did not mean to difcufs the fubject of the difpofition of thefe lands at that time. He muft, nevertheless, object to this motion, as he faw no neceflary connexion between that fubject and the one about to be fubmitted to the confideration of the House, which was an establishment for his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. Thefe two objects were furely of importance fufficient to call for feparate and diftinct confiderations.

Mr.