by no fault of their own had had no oppor- | nearly equal to the whole number of men tunity of distinguishing themselves; but whose terms of service had expired. The he hoped if ever they were called upon hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member they would do their duty. It was said for Huntingdon (General Peel) had stated they were not under the Mutiny Act, but the number wanted to be 32,000; but it if ever their services were required for the was satisfactory to know that the average defence of the country they would be placed number required to keep up the army under the Mutiny Act; and he should would not be much more than 18,000like to see them assimilated to the Militia, certainly not more than 20,000-so that not by making the Militia more civilian, they had now a source of supply that but by making the Volunteers more mili- would enable them effectually to keep up tary. This question of a Reserve was a the army. He hoped that every means great question; it was that of the defence would be adopted to maintain and increase of the country; it engaged the attention the standard of good conduct among the of the Continental Powers, of France men; and he would venture to express a and Prussia especially. In favour of the hope that, now the pay of the soldier had Volunteers it might be said that the tri- been increased, it would no longer be given umphant army of the latter Power was to him in driblets-as if the only way to composed, in a great measure, of those keep a man sober was to give him his pay classes from which the Volunteers derived in such small sums that he could not get their strength, from men engaged in trade, drunk upon it. When they were getting in professions, and in the arts and sciences. a better class of men they should treat He remembered hearing that a distin- them with more confidence. He had guished statuary at Berlin had left his heard with great satisfaction that the Restudio and shouldered his rifle to engage port of the Inspector General of Recruitthe Austrians. He hoped the Volunteers ing would be produced so as to enable would not be disheartened because the them to form a judgment on the whole Government was not able to comply with matter. There were several matters detheir request at present. They would serving serious consideration which were remember they had a costly affair on hand to be reserved. at present-the Abyssinian war, which he hoped would soon terminate to the satisfaction of the country, and then the claims of the Volunteers might be considered. At present he thought a step had been taken in the right direction to unite them more closely with the Militia, and he hoped the only rivalry that would ever exist between them would be which of them should best serve their country.

MR. O'REILLY said, there was one subject to which he had called attention for several years, when the fact was indeed denied—namely, how very inefficient the recruiting system was, and how far we were below the establishment at the end of each year. It was satisfactory, however, to find that the recommendations of the Royal Commission on this subject had been well and efficiently carried out by the Department. They had been successful in a double degree, providing a large increase and a superior supply of first recruits-an increase of from 5,000 to 7,000. They had given not only a large supply of re-enlisted men, but enabled them to take or reject whom they pleased. The reengagements last year were 26,000; the number we might have re-engaged had not been mentioned, but it must have been

One was the subject of the retirement from the non-purchase corps of the army. That subject was to be brought before them for separate consideration. When it was brought forward he should be prepared to support the recommendation of the Committee of which he had been a member. There was another point that had been reservednamely, the combination of the different manufacturing Departments of the army under one head. He expressed no opinion on that subject. It was also unnecessary for him to refer at present to the recommendations of Lord Strathnairn's Committeee, since they would be brought forward on a future occasion in greater detail. He, however thought that the change proposed by the right hon. Gentleman in the administration of the army supply would lead to greater economy. He did not feel called upon to express any opinion with respect to the question of the Army Reserve which had been brought forward by the right hon. Member for Huntingdon last year, as that subject would also come under discussion on a future occasion. With reference to the question that had been raised by the hon. Member for Queen's County (General Dunne), he saw no reason why the Militia

army as non-commissioned officers. But did his right hon. Friend mean to say that they should at once be invested with the rank, and placed over the heads of all the other members of the force? If that were his intention, he (Colonel North) could assure him that the measure would create great dissatisfaction throughout the service. The hon. Alderman (Mr. Alderman Lusk) who had addressed some remarks to the Committee upon the subject of the army, and had immediately afterwards left the House, gave the Committee to understand that this country was paying a great number of millions for the support of 40,000 men; but the fact was, that although we had only about 40,000 at home, about £13,000,000 covered the ex

and the Volunteers should not be under the inspection of the same general officer. There were five different species of military forces in this country-the Regular army, Militia, the Yeomanry, the Embodied Pensioners, and the Volunteers, which were at present entirely separate, and in some instances antagonistic, in their organization, and, in his opinion, it would be far better if all the different elements of the Army of Reserve were brought under the control of one head. He wished to direct the attention of the right hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakington) to two minor points connected with the subject. In the first place, it would be advisable to place the members of the survey Department upon a permanent, instead of leaving them upon their present temporary, foot-penses of something like 136,000 men. It ing. It would also be well if some ar rangement were come to by which the sums to which those cavalry officers, who had purchased their commissions before the change in the regulations, were entitled on leaving the service were paid them at once, or were rendered available towards purchasing their future steps.

MR. AYRTON said, he understood the Secretary of State for War to say that it was contemplated to put both the Militia and the Volunteers under generals of districts. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON made a ges ture of dissent.] He was anxious that the right hon. Baronet should explain whether he proposed to retain the great principle of the civil administration of the army-the principle that everything connected with the expenditure of public money-everything, in short, unconnected with the discipline of the troops and the use of arms, should remain in the hands of civil administrators. He could well understand how a contrary principle might find favour in the eyes of military men; but he trusted that, before introducing any change in this respect, the right hon. Baronet would submit his proposal in a distinct form, so that the House might express an opinion upon what, in his opinion, would tend to withdraw the expenditure of public money from the control of the representatives of the British taxpayers.

COLONEL NORTH said, he should be glad to receive from his right hon. Friend some explanation with respect to the boys whom he proposed to introduce into the army. His right hon. Friend said he thought the boys educated at Chelsea might be advantageously employed in the

was true, as the hon. Alderman complained, that the troops were scattered all over the world; but our soldiers were stationed in the West Indies and other unhealthy and pestilential places, not in consequence of their own inclination, for they would much rather remain in this country, but for objects of which the hon. Alderman himself would probably strongly approve. The hon. Member for Carmarthenshire (Mr. Pugh), in talking of the advantages which had accrued from volunteering in the Prussian service, should have remembered that volunteering was unknown in that country, and that every one was bound to serve for a certain length of time. He did not believe that such a system would be tolerated for a moment by the people of this country. The Volunteers ought and wished to be regarded as auxiliary to the military and the Militia, with whom they did not desire in any way to interfere.

MR. AYTOUN wished to know, whether all the troops at home had been supplied with Snider rifles; whether they had been furnished to our troops in India and the colonies; and, whether it was intended to place them in the hands of our native troops in India and of our Volunteers? He understood that already about 300,000 weapons had been converted-enough, it might be thought, to arm the whole of our regular force. With respect to the Volunteers, the right hon. Baronet appeared to argue that, because the number of efficient riflemen was increasing, the Capitation Grant ought to receive no addition. He denied the justness of the inference. It was a fact that, owing to the smallness of the Grant, the selection of

officers was confined to within very narrow | therefore, if the army took those charges limits, only rich men being able to accept the higher appointments.

upon its Votes, it would take upon them provision for a certain number of sailors, the cost of victualling the vessels, &c., and the only result will be confusion worse confounded. With the exception of cases of that kind, however, he entirely agreed in the general tone of his right hon. Friend's remarks, and admitted the desirableness of the Army Estimates showing army expenditure and the Navy Estimates showing navy expenditure. He thought it ought to go out to the country that they were not spending £15,500,000, but really less than £14,000,000, on the army. This, indeed, was a far too great expense for this country. But he could not but admit that the last Estimates of an expiring Parliament ought not to deal largely in important changes, which, whatever might be their direction or their extent, would have to come before the next Parliament, chosen by the new constituencies. The next House of Commons would most probably seek to render the army more national than it had hitherto been with re

But

MR. CHILDERS said, he had to congratulate the right hon. Baronet on the very lucid statement in which he had brought these Estimates under the consideration of the House. The explanations which the right hon. Baronet had made had been none the more easy from the fact that the right hon. Baronet had to show that an apparent expenditure of about £15,500,000 represented a real outlay of less than £14,000,000. But there were some points involved in that statement on which he (Mr. Childers) was anxious to take that opportunity of making a few observations. He, like his right hon. Friend, noticed in the form of the Estimates some changes which, although about to be considered by them, had not been approved by the Committee on Public Accounts, and which, undoubtedly, tended to swell the Estimates. He would not, however, discuss this question of extra receipts, as it would come before the Committee to which he belonged. But the Se-spect both to officers and men; and those cretary of State had suggested more ques- questions would have to be handled in a tionable changes. His right hon. Friend careful manner, lest they should destroy had referred to the fact that all the trans- the existing machinery without constructport expenditure was borne on the Navy ing a better machinery in its place. Votes, and all the cost of the guns for the meanwhile one of the preparatory steps navy on the Army Votes; and had told them should be to get the control of the that he should like to see the cost of the civil Departments of the army into a army transports inserted in the Army Esti- thoroughly efficient condition before they mates, and the cost of guns for the navy attempted to make more extensive changes. in the Navy Estimates. Now, it seemed He was glad, therefore that his right to him (Mr. Childers) that it would be hon. Friend had, during the Recess, taken very difficult to carry out that arrange- up as his own peculiar question the ment. The rule should be that the De- subject treated by Lord Strathnairn's partment which had the spending of the Committee, and although his right hon. money ought to be accountable for it on Friend had not yet gone far in the the face of the Estimates. If the military matter, they had every reason to hope Departments had the manufacturing es- that, in the course of the present Session, tablishments under their charge, then, an efficient control over those Departments however much of the out-turn of those would be brought about prior to the conestablishments went to the navy, it was sideration of the further changes to which impossible that the navy could be pro- he had alluded. But coming to the recomperly made accountable for them. If mendations of Lord Strathnairn's Committee, he wished to say at once that he thought it would not be expedient for Parliament to deal with them, as far as sanctioning or disapproving them went, until the whole scheme was fully before it. The matter was too large and too important to be treated piecemeal. We had a very peculiar system of army management. Without, then, discussing whether the relations between the War Office and the Horse Guards were the best that could exist,

again the transport department were under the control of the military authori ties, then it ought to come under the military Votes; but as long as the charge of the transport service rested on the Admiralty, its cost should not be placed in the Army Estimates. The cost of the transport service was not all comprised in Vote 17 of the Navy Estimates; but included the charge for men, provisions, and items in several other Votes, and,

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON explained, that what he had said was, that the recommendations of Lord Strathnairn's Committee was that the system of control should be commenced under an officer of high rank.

it must be admitted that those relations | his functions with rapidity in order to were of a peculiar and delicate charac- keep up with the requirements of the serter, and a danger he foresaw in deal- vice. For this reason he had heard with ing with the recommendations of Lord regret, rumours that the auditors of army Strathnairn's Committee was that, unless accounts were to be subordinate to some the greatest care was taken, they might high War Office official. He especially intensify the existing duality of the army insisted that the auditing Department administration, the result of which would should be more directly under the control be the most complete financial confusion of Parliament, as is the Auditor-General. and the utter destruction of anything like It should not be under departmental uniform action. The right hon. Baronet control. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said it was of opinion that it would be desirable was not.] He admitted that the right to place the Controller's Department un- hon. Baronet had not yet committed der the management of an officer of high himself to the error he wished to guard rank, who would bring to the War Office against; but he feared that the tenthe experience which he had acquired in dency of his arrangements was in that the service. direction. The Audit Office, properly so called, or the War Office, should be more under the control of the Auditor General than under that either of the Controller or of the Under Secretary of State. With regard again to transport, so far as conveyance of troops by water was concerned, he thought the right hon. Baronet would act somewhat rashly if he attempted to run counter to the recommendations of the Committee which considered the subject, and to bring back that service under the control of the War Office. Allusion had been made to the scheme of retirement from the nonpurchase corps which had emanated from the Committee which sat last year, and of which he was Chairman. Three objections had been urged against it, according to his right hon. Friend; first, the expense; secondly, that it would have a tendency to withdraw efficient officers from the army; and, thirdly, the dissatisfaction among the other branches of the service that would arise in the event of its being applied to the officers of the Artillery and Engineers. The Report had received, however, the unanimous sanction of a Committee composed of civilians and military men. But the real fault found with the plan had not been mentioned. The objectors to the scheme really felt that the system proposed was too economical for them. It had been urged by the senior officers of Artillery that under it they would lose prospects which, by the unequal character of the present system, had fortunately and accidentally been held out to them. Most probably the discovery of the three other objections alluded to by the right hon. Baronet was due to this cause. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON: I never heard of that.] If the right hon. Baronet had not heard of what had been

MR. CHILDERS was not at all disputing the fitness of the two gallant officers selected, but desirous of pointing out to his right hon. Friend that unless the greatest caution was observed the effect produced might be to minimize that civil control to which the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had. referred; and one of two | things would probably happen-either the entire management of the army would be thrown into military hands, the Secretary of State being practically powerless, or they would have two military Departments acting as rivals to each other, and creating an infinitely worse dualism and anarchy than was produced by the antagonism between a civil and a military administration. He would next take the question of audit. For an efficient check on expenditure three things were necessary. First, they ought to have the means of knowing what expenditure was really going on; next, they wanted a proper controlling authority; and, thirdly, they required to have a Department engaged in auditing the expenditure which had been incurred, to ensure that the accounts were correct, both as to authority and as to voucher. It was important that there should be no confusion between these several distinct branches of financial administration. The right hon. Baronet had spoken of a prompt audit; but the whole theory of audit rested on the hypothesis that the auditor should not be hurried, and should not feel that he was obliged to exercise