to improve the condition of education in | National Board of Education. On the Ireland and the feeling of the people as subject of pensions to teachers, he could to their responsibility towards their not help thinking that scant justice had children as anything which had been been done. Some little time back a attempted for the advancement of Irish deputation of Irish national school education since the foundation of the teachers waited upon the Chancellor of system. The change ought doubtless the Exchequer to ask his favourable to be worked with care and prudence consideration of the whole subject of and with the desire to avoid inflicting pensions to be granted to members of hardships; and if it were he had no their body; but the Government had doubt that it would be of the utmost chosen to regard the representations benefit to all concerned-parents, chil- made to them as a demand for more dren, and teachers. The right hon. than could possibly be given, and had, Gentleman concluded by moving the therefore, declined to make any proposal Vote. on the subject. As to the question of residences, he gave the right hon. Gentleman credit for having redeemed his pledge, but he wished to see a further alteration of the rules with the view of conferring greater benefit on the teachers. He urged that no grants should be made to schools unless proper residences were provided, residences being, in his point of view, as important as school buildings. Another point in connection with the system of education was, he was informed, the abolition of the Roman Catholic Secretary to the Board of Education. That was a distinct breach of faith. The Roman Catholic Secretary of the Board was appointed because Roman Catholic managers could communicate more freely with that officer than with the Protestant Secretary, whose salary was now to be increased in consequence of the abolition of the other office. He wished also to observe that last year the Reports of Inspectors of National Education had been omitted from the Blue Book furnished to Members. In previous years the Reports were given, and as these afforded the only means by which hon. Gentlemen could judge of the efficiency of the teaching staffs, he hoped that next year these Reports would be printed, as they had been heretofore.

MR. MELDON said, the course pursued by the Government had materially injured the teachers ever since 1874, and had also injuriously affected education. Many of the teachers were very much worse off than they were before the Government interfered. Attention had been called to these facts in the month of March last, and now they were at the end of the Session treated to a general disquisition instead of a practical plan for redressing what was a real grievance. As to a national rate for national purposes, the teachers had not expressed any opinion as to the source whence the funds should be drawn; but they did claim that as the Government had put them in a worse position than they were two years ago, they had a right to look to the Government for compensation. He hoped the Chief Secretary would explain his plan rather more fully as to the contributions.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH said, he proposed that the Government should accept contributions from the managers, or any one locally interested in a school.

MR. MELDON observed, that he understood that if the managers subscribed one-third the Government would then subscribe two-thirds. That might at first sight be a fair arrangement; but the case of Ireland was very different from that of England, because the Roman Catholics had been in many cases compelled to erect training schools for themselves, and a large proportion of the schools were entirely supported by voluntary contributions, without any aid whatever from the Government, yet at the same time the teachers were not liable to be dismissed by the managers, but were in fact the servants of the

THE O'CONOR DON gave his most hearty approval to the scheme of the right hon. Baronet to accept local contributions from any source in lieu of rates. There was no better way to improve education in Ireland than to exact certain payments from the parents, as thus they would be taught to value education more. If not only the school fees, but the amount of the Government grant, depended on the attendance of the children, the teachers would be induced to exert themselves, and before

DR. WARD expressed his opinion that the national system in Ireland had been an entire failure.

long we should find not only that there | He did not believe in the religious would be greater regularity of attend- difficulty. He had no doubt that the ance, but that the number of children Buddhist, the Mahomedan, the Protesin attendance would be increased. On tant, and the Roman Catholic would all the whole, the statement of the right in the end go to the same "happy hon. Baronet was one which should hunting-ground" if they did what they commend itself to the approval of Irish believed to be right. Members, and his only regret was that it had been made so late in the Session, because he believed, if made earlier, it would have given general satisfaction. He hoped there was no intention to abolish the Commissioners' second secretaryship in Dublin. He did not think it would be justifiable to keep up a larger number of officers than there was work for them to do, and he would not justify the retention of the two secretaries merely on the ground of religion; but the work of the Department was increasing every year, and the number of schools was being largely added to, and he believed two secretaries were required.

MR. ERRINGTON felt grateful to the Chief Secretary for the statement he had made, and for the proposals he had placed before the Committee. Very much depended on raising the salaries and positions of the masters, and the improvement would depend on the manner in which these changes were to be made. The principles that ought to be followed were those raised by the right hon. Baronet-namely, payment by results fees and local contributions. He hoped, as was proposed in the Bill of last year, that the workhouse teachers would be allowed to share in the benefits of the results fees system.

LORD CHARLES BERESFORD was sorry the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) was not in his place, because the Motion in his name would have raised the question whether the Board system or the denominational system was best. The right hon. Baronet, he thought, was rather feeling for denominational education, because if schools were supported by local contributions it would lead to a denominational system eventually. He himself was decidedly for denominational education. He had been lately in Ceylon, where Roman Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, and Mahomedans had each schools of their own, and he went over them with the Governor, Sir William Gregory, who expressed great satisfaction with the working of the system.

MR. M. BROOKS suggested that if compulsory payment was enforced it should be fixed at as low a rate as possible, because of the general poverty of the parents, many of whom could not afford to pay 1d. a-week.

CAPTAIN NOLAN thought the plans proposed would press rather hardly; would scarcely remove the evils complained of, and would raise the salaries very little. He accepted the principle of a national rate for the support of education in Ireland. Indeed, that was one of the first things that he would vote for had the Irish the control of their own affairs; but he insisted upon this, that a majority of the Irish Members should settle what the national system of education should be. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would state whether he regarded the provision of residences as local contributions.

MR. GIBSON hoped the Government would direct their attention to the system of local inspection before the commencement of the next Session. The duties of the Inspectors were most arduous and important. They were men of great ability, but were labouring under great disadvantages as compared with the Inspectors in England, whose salaries exceeded theirs by hundreds a-year. He thought as the duties of the Inspectors in both countries greatly resembled each other, there ought to be something like similarity in their position.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY entirely concurred in the remarks of the hon. Gentleman, and said he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take the matter into consideration.

THE O'DONOGHUE said, that in his opinion a compulsory national rate, provided it were moderate in amount and not liable to vary, would not be unpopular with Boards of Guardians in Ireland. The cause of its unpopularity was that it was uneven in its pressure,

and that there seemed to be no possi- | of the Commissioners was that it had bility of fixing a limit to it. been decided, mainly on considerations MR. M'CARTHY agreed with the of expense, to publish the Inspectors' hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Brooks) Reports trienially instead of annually. that some provision should be made for The arrangement proposed by the Trearemitting some portion of the fees re-sury respecting the Secretaryships to the quired from parents with large fami

(15.) £8,822, to complete the sum for | polluting liquids harmless. Prosecutions the Queen's Colleges, Ireland.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;
Committee to sit again To-morrow.

POLLUTION OF RIVERS BILL.

(Mr. Sclater-Booth, Mr. Salt.) [BILL 186.] CONSIDERATION. Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now taken into Consideration."(Mr. Sclater-Booth.)

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were not to be undertaken, except with the consent of the Local Government Board, and every possible precaution was taken to protect the interests of manufacturers, while the interests of the public were very subordinate even in the eyes of the framers of the first Bill. But now the Bill is so altered that public interests seemed to have vanished altogether in the background, and the interests of the manufacturers are pushed into prominence in every clause of the Bill. Manufacturers are now ardent supporters of the Bill, and well they may be. In Scotland, at least, it interprets the law entirely in their favour. Our common law was intolerant of pol

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR: I have placed an Amendment against proceed-lution, and thought the interests of the ing with this Bill, because it has such public were of more importance than the important bearings to the public, that it interests of polluters. But this Bill, ought to be brought on at reasonable hours, when the public can learn what are doing in regard to it. That hitherto has not been the case. It was brought on for a second reading at 1 o'clock one morning and then was not discussed, for all the speaking was, as to whether we should then proceed with it. But on the assurances that ample opportunity would be given for its discussion on going into Committee we allowed the second reading to be taken. Nevertheless, the Committee came upon us by surprise on Saturday morning, again at 1 o'clock, when several of those most interested in the Bill were absent. So far as the public were concerned, the only information which they received, through the newspapers, was that the Bill had passed two stages. The Bill originally was not a strong one. Two Commissions and a Select Committee of the Lords had inquired into the Pollution of Rivers, and had given full recommendations as to the course of legislation. Very few of these are embodied in this Bill. Still the Bill, as introduced, tried to deal in a simple way with certain kinds of pollution. It prohibited solid refuse from being thrown into rivers; it dealt with sewage pollutions and, in a vague sort of way, it treated of pollutions caused by manufactories and mines. It was very tender to past sinners, but future sinners it did not tolerate. Pollution generally was not considered an offence, if the old polluters had used the best practicable and available means to render their

in the whole of its spirit, tells the Scotch Judges that they have been mistaken in their view of the law, and that they must always consider the interests of polluters, if engaged in mines or manufactures, as of more importance than the interests of the public. Take, for example, the 8th clause, which forbids even the Local Government Board to give consent to proceedings under the Act, if it will inflict injury on the interests of any manufacturing industry. In the first edition that prohibition was not there at all, then in the second edition the Bill threw its mantle of protection over the textile industries, and now by the third edition the Local Government Board is to protect all industries whatever against the public rights to have rivers free from pollution. No wonder that manufacturers highly approve this Bill of the President of the Local Government Board, and urge that it should be passed with a singular unanimity. Every operative clause in the Bill has thus had its force taken out of it as a means of protecting manufacturing interests against the assaults of public prosecution. But a Bill against pollution was not required at all in the interests of manufacturers, though it was much desired in the interests of the public. And for these interests, at least so far as Scotland is concerned, the Bill had far better not have been brought in. It does, in England, better the law as regards solid refuse and sewage, but for polluting liquids of mines and manufactories it is worth very little. I object

COLONEL MURE remarked, that although no Bill had ever been so much condemned, there had not been a single Amendment placed on the Paper except by manufacturers. If the interests of the public were so much concerned, surely some one would have announced an Amendment. In the interests of the public as well as the proprietors he was anxious to see the question settled. was because other Scotch Members were in their places, and the right hon. Member for Edinburgh University was not, that he had not an opportunity of discussing the Bill on the occasion in question.

also to the Bill because it immensely | Bill which the right hon. Gentleman increases central as against local autho- complained of, all he could say was that rity. The powers of the Local Govern- the clause to which he referred was but ment Inspectors are marvellous. There an amplification of language which alis no security given in the Bill that the ready stood in the Bill. He denied that Inspector need be a qualified man, and the Amendments introduced through his yet he is to be the sole judge whether a agency would have the effect of destroytown, village, or manufactory may pol-ing the original intention of the Bill. lute rivers, for he may give a certificate that they may continue to pollute streams for five years more. He may declare that an old manufactory has no practicable means for preventing pollution, and yet a new manufactory must do what it is said to be impossible, according to the Inspector's judgment, for the old manufactory to perform. The Bill, as a whole, is so little in the interests of the public and so vastly in the interests of polluters, that I see little advantage in passing it. And it so greatly increases central power that I think it is a dangerous encroachment on our principles of local government. But I know how useless it is to divide the House against a Bill at this stage of its progress, and at this period of the Session; and having thus delivered my protest against it, and my refusal to accept it as any efficient measure for preventing the pollution of rivers, I do not intend to trouble the House by taking a division on the Amendment which I have placed on the Paper.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, the right hon. Gentleman was quite wrong in supposing that anything that fell from him did not deserve, and would not reIceive the attention of the House. At the same time, the right hon. Member would be saving time if he had gone into Committee and moved his Amendments. The difficulties of the question were immense, and the enormous capital at stake was not to be lightly dealt with. It was true that the Scotch Members supported the Bill; but it was only just to them to say that their support was given before any of the alterations said to be so particularly favourable to manufacturers as against the public had been made in its clauses. He hoped that in the future a good deal of the centralization complained of would be removed. He agreed that it was desirable that the administration of the Bill should be placed in the hands of the local authorities; but if it was proposed to do so at first there would be a great outcry against it. As to the third part of the

It

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE thought some explanation ought to have been given of the introduction the other day in the House of Lords of a Suspensory Bill which would have the effect of preventing any pollutions for the ensuing year. He thought a case had been made out for not passing the Bill this Session. He moved that the debate be now adjourned.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." (Sir Charles W. Dilke.)

MR. M'LAREN trusted the House would proceed with the Bill, as ninetenths of the public, in addition to the manufacturers, were in favour of the measure.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT expressed a hope that the hon. Member for Chelsea would not press his Motion. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Lyon Playfair) did not persevere with his Amendment, not liking to take the responsibility of doing so. What the House ought to consider was whether the Bill was not better than nothing. He recognized the force of what the President of the Local Government Board said the other night— that it was a great thing to get the framework of the Bill.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered.