bring forward the Indian Budget this week, and consequently I did not announce the day on which it might be taken. But I should think no one except the hon. Member for Hackney could for a moment have supposed that Her Majesty's Government would advise the Prorogation of Parliament without giving the House an opportunity of discussing the financial affairs of India. With regard to the inquiry just made by the noble Lord, I have to make the same remark as to the promise I made to give an opportunity for discussing the question of Extradition. It cannot be discussed this week, and therefore I did not give notice of the day on which it might be brought forward. By the statement I have made as to other measures, however, I have enabled the House to form a fair estimate as to the period when the hon. and learned Member for Oxford may have an opportunity of raising the question of Extradition. With regard to the first of the Scotch Bills referred to by the hon. Member for Falkirk (Mr. Ramsay) I understand there is a prospect of passing it without opposition, and therefore I do not wish to withdraw a Bill under those circumstances. With respect to the second Bill he mentioned, I believe it has been already announced that the Government do not intend to proceed with it this Session. There then remains the question of the noble Lord, as to what will become of the debate of this evening if it should be adjourned. I do not wish to contemplate that the debate will be adjourned this evening. I think it might be discussed and concluded tonight by sitting to a rather unusual hour. If, however, it should be the wish of the House to adjourn the debate I shall be unable to name an immediate day for its consideration, because we have Business with which we propose to proceed arranged for every day in the present week. Supply and the Education Bill must be proceeded with without loss of time unless the Prorogation should be delayed much later than it would otherwise be. I am unable, therefore, to state what day the adjourned debate if it should be adjourned-can be resumed, but I will take care that a day is secured for that purpose. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE inquired what Estimates would be taken on Friday? MR. DISRAELI: I proposed to proceed with Supply to-morrow. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE : But Friday. MR. DISRAELI: The Suez Canal. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE said, he presumed the Supplementary Estimates delivered that morning would also be proceeded with on Friday. MR. DISRAELI: Yes, and Monday. MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in answer to the question put by the hon. Member for Hackney, stated that he should propose to discharge the Orders of the Day on the University Bills when the Orders were called on. MR. W. E. FORSTER: There will be a Morning Sitting to-morrow? MR. DISRAELI: Yes. Motion agreed to. Ordered, That the Orders of the Day be postponed until after the Notice of Motion relating to the Insurrection in Bosnia and Herzegovina. MR. BRUCE, in rising to call the attention of the House to the Papers relating to the Insurrection in Bosnia and the Herzegovina ; and to move— "That this House is of opinion that Her Maspect due to existing Treaties, should exercise jesty's Government, while maintaining the reall their influence with the view of securing the common welfare and equal treatment of the various races and religions which are under the authority of the Sublime Porte," said, that he wished first to make a briefexplanation on the subject of the alteration made in the terms of his Motion. He had placed that Motion on the Paper without the least intention of making it a Party question; but he was afterwards informed that some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite had taken that view of his Resolution, and as he was unwilling that it should bear this complexion, he had altered the terms of his Motion. He believed that the noble Lord the Member for Calne (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) had made a similar alteration in the terms of his Amendment. With regard to the Motion itself, he felt a certain diffidence in bringing it forward, not only in consequence of the magnitude and importance of the ques tion itself, but because the debate was | command the trade of the Danube would, of a somewhat different character from if it also possessed Constantinople, inthose usually raised in that House. In troduce a disturbing element into our discussing questions affecting the policy trade, especially if that Power were not of this country, hon. Members spoke to characterized by the liberality in coman audience of their own countrymen, who mercial matters which Turkey, to do her knew them and their position, and were justice, had always shown. The policy very good critics and judges of the im- of this country, and the interest felt by portance to be attached to their remarks. our great statesmen in Turkey had been But hon. Members who might take part influenced by these considerations. But in that debate were speaking to a much we had never been the advocates of larger audience. Their remarks would Turkey regarded as a Mussulman Power, be read at Belgrade, in Constantinople, we had simply felt that as long as and in other countries where they were these countries remained in the hands of personally unknown, and where their a comparatively insignificant Power the words would be regarded not in the danger of political disturbance was measure of the individual importance of greatly lessened. While saying that, the speaker, but as having been spoken however, at the same time, he was sure in an Assembly consisting of the Repre- that neither this nation, nor any Governsentatives of the greatest Power in the ment worthy of representing this nation, world. It was desirable, therefore, that would not allow the political advantages those who took part in that discussion which might be obtained by the position should express themselves with modera- of Turkey to stand in the way, if it were tion, and avoid any occasion or intrusion necessary they should be purchased by of their Party differences. For himself, the misery and misgovernment of the he could honestly state his intention of people. The great object of our policy so acting. Before discussing the Papers was that while maintaining the status quo he wished to say a few words upon the we were ready to use our influence in general condition of this Turkish ques- obtaining necessary reforms, in purifying tion. The Eastern Question had been the Turkish Administration, and in very much talked and written about; equalizing the position of the different but many mistaken ideas were current races which were under the same sway. as to the policy which this country had Whatever might have been the partial pursued upon that question for many success or future of these efforts, the years past. There was a certain political main object of the English Government interest for England in the unrivalled had never wavered, and the happiness position of Constantinople itself; in its and good government of the races under harbour, which was absolutely impreg- Turkish sway had always been the desire nable if held by a strong Power, par- and wish of the statesmen of this country, ticularly if that Power were backed by and he hoped would always continue to the possession of the shores of the Black remain so. The state of things in TurSea. The possession of Constantinople key was in many respects much to be under these circumstances would con- deplored, and we had the Eastern quesstitute a formidable menace in the tion with its old difficulties staring us in Eastern part of the Mediterranean, and the face, as it did many years ago. The might materially affect our position in condition of Turkey was mainly owing reference to our route to India, par- to the complication of races and religions ticularly if the Power to which he re- and the extreme misgovernment of the ferred had possessions or objects con- Central Power. Those religions were trary to our own in Asia Minor. Of intermixed in all parts of the Empire, course, we might secure ourselves by and there had never been a proper seizing Candia and Egypt, but such a recognition of their positions and claims. course of proceeding would simply be He did not refer to the position of the increasing our responsibilities, and Churches, which was not to be much raising complications which no states- complained of. The Christian comman in this country would willingly munities had their Own Ministers adopt, besides involving us in a conflict and managed their own affairs, and which it would be desirable to avoid. they were not subject to the interA Power already possessing the shores ference of the Central Power with of the Black Sea, and thereby able to the exception of its consent being re quired to the appointment of the principal ecclesiastics. Complaints were made that they were not allowed to use bells in some rural districts, but elsewhere, and especially in Constantinople, bells were used to such an extent as would cause the interference of the police magistrate in any other country in the world. The evidence before the House as to the condition of the Christian communities did not show any great degree of oppression, and on this branch of the subject he would repeat a statement made by Fuad Pasha to a deputation which waited upon him representing a particular sect, and which the Pasha repeated to him (Mr. Bruce) "The Mussulmans are bound by their religion to give the utmost respect to anything which is placed as a deposit in their hands. They are bound to retain it intact, and to restore it without injury. We look upon the Christian communities under our Government as being placed by Providence with us as a deposit. We must keep them intact and respect them. We do not, like you Christians, think that we have a right to alter their condition as we think proper." Now, up to the present the Christians had been comparatively unmolested in their corporate capacity; but he was afraid that those who knew Turkey best would unite in saying that, with the exception of some very small communities, there was not amongst them very much of the intelligence shown amongst Christian communities in this part of the world, and so far there had not been any indication amongst them that their religion had placed them on a superior level to that of the Mahomedans. There was not a very great difference between the state of the Christian peasant and the Mahomedan peasant, except with respect to what he might call the social position of the Christians as individuals. For many years, for instance, their testimony was not received as against that of the Mussulmans. That grievance in a great degree had now been removed wherever the Government was strong, but it still remained in force in many parts of the Empire. Then there was the question of Christians being admitted to military service, but the evidence on that subject went to show that was a privilege which they did not wish to possess. It was true they paid a tax in lieu of service, but he believed that if they were asked they would rather pay than serve; and, indeed, in one of Sir VOL. CCXXXI. [THIRD SERIES.] Henry Elliot's despatches he mentioned that the influence of Earl Russell and of Lord Dalling was exercised against the granting of that privilege. That, therefore, could not be considered a very great boon. In other respects the Christian was very much in the same position as the Mahomedan, and that was bad enough. They were subject to all the evils of the Turkish Government -its arbitrariness, its exactions, its monstrous system of taxation, and there could be no doubt that in those respects much required to be done to better their condition. But whatever should be done for the one, ought equally to be done for the other. The greatest grievance of all-that which was most frequently mentioned in the Papers before the House-was that which related to the system of taxation, resolving itself, House was aware that under the system as it did, into a system of tithes. The of capitulations a great proportion of the wealthy inhabitants did not pay any direct taxation at all, and the taxes fell almost exclusively upon the agricultural population, both Mussulman and Christian. The question of commuting the taxes and collecting them directly had more than once been raised, but the peasantry objected to it, and it had to be given up, and the system of farming the taxes was still maintained. It was, indeed, questionable whether direct collection by the Government would be more favourable to the people than the system of farming now was. One thing should not be forgotten, for it was, he believed, a matter of considerable importance-namely, that as long as the country was quiet the different races lived together in comparatively tolerable harmony; but, unfortunately, the question of religion had been mixed up with that of foreign protection, and the Christian population was supposed to be more or less-on account of their religion, that of the Greek Church—under the power and influence of Russia. The result was that whenever the Turkish Power was attacked, there was a strong tendency to blame the Christians for what they were supposed to be privy to, and a great part of the danger to which the Christians were exposed was traceable to the fact that they were regarded as being in alliance with the enemies of Turkey. That was a matter which ought to be taken into account in calmly consi F dering the whole state of the question. | be turned out of Europe altogether. It The difficulty was not attributable in was Mr. Fox, he believed, who said any great degree to differences of race that Mussulmans were an anachronism -races being so inextricably mixed up. in Europe. That was quite true, but there The distinction of race did not co-exist were several other anachronisms existwith the distinction of religious belief. ing in Europe which could not be dealt In many of the Provinces the dominant with in so sweeping a manner, and the Turkish race had been merged in the proposal was not one that was likely to be Christian population, and that was the received with favour in this 19th century. difficulty which existed in respect of that It was not in itself an advanced system question of autonomy. It would be of policy, and it had this further disimpossible to bring about an amalga- advantage, that it was quite clear that mation of the two races, as was forcibly such a suggestion could not be acted pointed out by Lord Derby in his de- upon; and it was equally clear that a spatch of the 27th of June last, and his policy of the kind could not possibly be (Mr. Bruce's) own opinion was, that in carried out except at the cost of an existing circumstances, no good would immense amount of bloodshed. Granted result from giving autonomy to the dis- there were large Mussulman populations affected Provinces unless they were to in Europe, there were equally large be kept in order by some superior Christian communities in Asia, and if force. The position of the other semi- the Mussulmans were driven out of independent States had always been Europe, their fanaticism would rise to different from that of Bosnia and Her- such a height that reprisals would be zegovina. There never were large num- adopted against the Christians in Asia, bers of Armenians in Roumania, and compared with which the recent atrocities there were none in Montenegro; so that in Bulgaria would be mere trifles. The the establishment of autonomy in those people of Bosnia and Herzegovina were Provinces was comparatively easy, and in a peculiar position, because most of it had been more or less successful. the d in those Provinces was owned by The Servians had a very fertile country, Mussulmans, and the soil, which was and had always been disposed to peace- formerly held by the tenants under a ful pursuits; but the Montenegrins had sort of feudal tenure, was now let under no such advantages, and were generally a system by means of which each tenant distinguished by a fondness for joining handed to his landlord a part of the in disturbances in whatever direction crop which his land produced. Now, it their sympathies for the time being was obvious that a system of that kind might lead them. On the general ques- must be liable to greater abuse than tion he could not help thinking that it any other kind; and, as a matter of fact, was a very doubtful policy to go on the disturbances which had arisen were multiplying these small States, which due much more to agrarianism than to in all parts of Europe had been a source religion; for in the first representations of great difficulty. Most of the great which were made for redress, the people wars that had disturbed the Continent put forward their position as farmers. during the present century had had re- The difficulty of the situation was comference to the absorption or occupation plicated by the fact of many of the of small States. Such a policy would Christian population having in course of tend rather to disturbance than to peace. time become Mussulmans, and in adThere was no doubt that Servia and dition to this, the Christians in Bosnia Montenegro had been to a certain ex- and Herzegovina were Slavs, and they tent dependent upon Russia, and had were in constant communication with acted through the impulsion of Russian the Slav committees in Servia and Dalpublic opinion, if not of the Russian Go- matia, by whom they were strongly invernment itself. In point of fact, they fluenced in all their conduct. Furtherhad done that which the Russian Go- more, there was a geographical drawvernment would not take the responsi- back to the position of these Provinces, bility of doing for itself. Several solu- in that they were cut off from the seations of the difficulty had been suggested. board by a thin wedge of country beOne was, and it enjoyed the merit of longing to a Power which had always being both simple and complete in its shown itself adverse and obstructive in operation, that the Mussulmans should reference to commercial matters. The result was that the country, shut out from the sea, was surrounded or flanked by a network of Austrian custom-houses, and lay entirely at the mercy of the Austrian Government. Perhaps the best thing of all others to be done would be to hand over the Provinces to Austria, and so give them access, through Dalmatia, to the sea coast; but that was obviously impossible, and the question that remained was as to the course that was practicable to be taken under the circumstances. It was well known that for a long period these countries had been discontented, and that the immediate cause for the present outbreak was an attempt on the part of certain refugees, who had broken out into insurrection by reason of the taxes levied upon them, to compel the people to join their cause. This they did, after assassinating a number of Turks, and burning several villages. For some time after its outbreak the Turks regarded the affair as of no importance, and thought it would not be long in its duration; but their forces were few in the disturbed districts, and they did not make any impression on the enemy. Then, as the Turkish Force increased, the Insurgents, resting as they did on the one side on Montenegro, and on the other on Bosnia and Servia, were enabled to carry on the campaign during the winter, and when defeated to retire within these Provinces, and to come back and attack the Turkish Army when they found it convenient. Meantime the Turkish Army, not expecting a long campaign, were sent into the field in a very bad state; their commissariat was bad and their condition during the winter might be described in a well-known phrase as "horrible and heart-rending." Hostilities were carried on by both sides with the greatest barbarity. Atrocities, much to be regretted, were committed by the Insurgents in the earlier stages of the war, atrocities, some of which he would fain hope had been exaggerated. The consequence was, that when the opportunity arose, the Turks retaliated and committed atrocities in their turn. It was evident that a barbarous warfare, continued so long under those circumstances, was calculated to excite the feelings of the Turkish population to such an extent as to render the maintenance of peace extremely difficult, and in the war to make them likely to resort ex to the most violent and unscrupulous means to effect their object. But after due allowance was made for all this, it was to be borne in mind that the detailed accounts of cruelties published by both sides were utterly untrustworthy, for the Turkish bulletins were very much what bulletins were in most parts of the world, and the Insurgents were very remarkable for their imaginative powers. Indeed, they reminded him of a fact that came under his own notice at Athens during the Cretan Insurrection. Mr. Findlay took the trouble to sum up the accounts of the killed contained in a file of newspapers, and he found that during that small war, the Turks had lost 6,900,000 men, and the Greeks a smaller number. Now he knew that the Slavs, whatever their other merits, had never shown that magnificent power of imagination which was the gift of the Greek race, and to which we owed so much in our younger days. Still the Slavs followed their example to a great extent, and unfortunately those aggerations produced two effects-they tended to the exasperation of the Turkish population, and they led the Servians, Montenegrins, and other sympathizers utterly to undervalue and despise the Turkish Forces. The result of these causes combined were very disastrous. Meantime, the Porte proposed to introduce certain reforms, admirable in themselves, if there was any certainty of their being carried into effect. That was the difficulty. At that time the Three Northern Powers met at Vienna and drew up what was known as the Andrassy Note. There were two objections to that Note, however. One was a general objection. He confessed Her Majesty's Government were required to justify themselves for in any way accepting the interference of these Three Powers in a matter of the kind. In his opinion, anything which affected the condition of Turkey was not a question for the Three Northern Powers alone, but one in which the rest of Europe ought to be considered. The harmony of these Powers might be a great security for the peace of the world; but it was a different thing to constitute themselves as a Court which, in a matter affecting the internal relations of another country, would impose their will by force. No doubt if they were united they could impose their will on any Power by force; but it did not |