1774 Body of London Diffenting Minifters. cially as, in the face of that refolution, the committee had propofed another fubfcription, as the condition of preaching the Gospel of Chrift, with fecurity from fines and imprifonment. The body met again, Nov. 30, to determine what should be the mode of proceeding in a future application, and after a debate of three hours, adjourned to Dec. 7; on which day, after another three hours debate about the commen principle of liberty, not having yet difcovered it, they adjourned to the 11th of January, 1775., The question was now acknowledged by even the Secretary of the fubfcription committer, in a pompous circular letter to the body, to involve in it the fafety of the prefent generation, and of generations yet weborn," and three days, with all the intervening time of adjournments, were fcarcely fufficient to determine what was first refolved en in about an bear, and to settle a mode, which the committee thought themselves entitled to without their conftituents. At the opening of the firft of these three days debate, one of the confiftent friends of religious liberty moved, "That any country brethren, who fhall be willing to attend any meeting of the general body on the hufiness of an application to Parliament, be permitted to attend to speak and vote on that business." But although the minifters in the country were equally interested in the affair with thofe of London, the previous question was infifted en by fome of the committee, whether that queftion fhould be put or not; when, by the vote of a majority, the impartial and reafonable motion was difmiffed, and all the country brethren could obtain was, admiffion, but be zate. The two first days debate were cool and folid; Dr. Price and Mr. John Palmer diftinguished themfelves, and did great honour to the caufe of religious liberty: they lashed round and round the miferable circle of their opponents occafional arguments and temporary expedients: invention was exhaufted, reafon fatigued, and experience, it might have been expected, would have given judgment; but predilection and self-will were not to be conquered. The leaders of the late applications would not face about, nor ftop short and do no more. The difgrace of yield ing, or retreating, was too much they chofe to continue in their fwamp, and the poor pretence of "getting what they could," made them continue the fight, for a phantom to themfelves, but a real Trojan berfe to all their non-fubfcribing brethren. The third and laft day's debate was very unlike the two former; fo that fome prefent concluded, that the preceding calmnefs was a fiffe to foothe those who were against a religious fubfcription; but they adhered to their principles, whether men frowned or smiled: perfonal complaints and reproaches were utter 7 ed by fome, but the great pains which they themselves had been at (tho' happily unfuccefsful) to prejudice the characters of their brethren who acted on principle, and to inflame their friends against them, were forgotten. At laft, a queftion to this purport was moved for by the chairman of the committee, That the committee renew their application to Parliament the first favourable opportunity, on the former ground, PROVIDED it shall appear to them that there is no probability of fuccefs without a declaration. Another of the committee feconded it, and the brethren who had argued against the former ground, were now charged with doing it merely for the fake of oppofition; and that while they objected to one plan, they did not intend to propofe another. Dr. Mayo proved this charge to be groundless, as he had de fired a fenior minifter to open the third day's debate with the following motion "That the mode of proceeding in a future application to Parliament for the relief of Proteftant Diffenting minifters, tutors, and fchoolmafters, be for a total repeal of the penal laws now exifting against them." The gentleman declined the request, fearing it might be conftrued as feeking to haften on a decifive refolution, before the momentous affair was thoroughly difcuffed.Thus, the other motion was first made, which Dr. M-o wifhed might be withdrawn, for his, which was then read. He urged, that the former mode of proceeding was unfavourable to the caufe of religious liberty, and the ground had been proved untenable and dangerous; that an application for the repeal of the penal laws against them, would prevent any farther debate on the authority of the magiftrate in facris, or refpecting religious doctrines and opinions; that it plainly appeared to be the only mode in which the body of city and country minifters could poffibly unite; a mode that would alfo produce a fair trial of our friends in Parliament, and of the good will of adminiftration towards Proteftant Diffenting minifters, with the affurance of which from two regium donum men, the first minute for the late applications was ushered into the body. As the laft motion could not obtain admittance, the provifo in the chairman of the committee's motion was strongly objected to, as ufelefs, and calculated for a decoy the mover honourably declared, that he did not think himself or the committee obliged by it to carry in a bill to Parliament to try the probability of fuccefs without a declaration; befides, the body must know, that he had in a circular letter, dated May 22d, 1773, informed all the country minifters, in the joint names of the committee, that to apply without a declaration would not only be ineffectual, but defeat the whole defign." What the committee's rukole dfign was, they can beft explain; but the whole defign of the body 8 Defcription of the River Thames. body of minifters should be " to obtain effectual relief for ALL," and not countenance fome to feek the enlargement of thir own fecurity, and emoluments, at the peril of their brethren. This whole and only confiftent defign is entirely defeated, by applying with a declaration; furely, they who build their own toleration on what is fubverfive of the rights of human nature, the headship of Christ, and the peace and safety of their Chriftian brethren, ought to confider whether they are confiftent Proteftant Diffenters, or do love their neighbour as themfelves. Not being able to expunge the useless provifo, the words " to them" were strongly objected to, as devolving the whole on the committee, and precluding the body from exercifing any wildom, judgment, or authority in the affair. The following amendment was propofed, "Provided it fhall appear to the general body, &c." instead of " to them" (the committee). But numbers are oftentimes fuperior to arguments; the first question was repeatedly called for, and on a divifion thirty-three were for, fixteen against it. The interefting affair was thus decided, with only balf the body of minifters prefent; of thofe who were abfent, fome of the most aged and respectable were against the partial mode; and feveral who did attend met with fuch treatment, that it is expected they will no more give their opinion, advice, or prefence. Should the committee, however, apply T Jan. upon the former ground, a CASE is prepared to be given to each member of the legiflature, which will be figned by a few of the minifters, praying, on behalf of themselves, and a large number befides, for that relief and legal fecurity, which their own brethren would not feek for them. It will certainly be too late, when fufferings come on the confcientious non-fubfcribers, for them to fay to the magiftrate that "they were not included in the new toleration act," and the sufferers might then be justly reproached with not declaring their melancholy fituation while the bill was depending. All the world allows men to juftify themselves, and, if possible, to fave their character, liberty, property, and confciences from oppreffion, tho' in doing it they lay open the conduct of those who would fo expofe them. The Apoftle Peter, because he was to be blamed, was withflood to the face, expofed and reproved, by PAUL. P. S. Pleafe to record the names of the refpectable fixteen in the minority. Thofc with a * fpoke in the debate. Drs. Fleming, Meff. Olding, Price, Mayo, Calder, S. Palmer, Bulkely, Baillie, Clarke, Kello, J. Palmer, Reynolds, *Meff, White, For the LONDON MAGAZINE. A DESCRIPTION of the RIVER THAMES. HE THAMES (the rife and fource of which are fo accurately delineated in the annexed, expenfive engraving) is the principal river in Great Britain; and tho' it is not to be compared for the length of its courfe to the Danube and Rhine, yet for its various windings it equals them in beauty, and for the excellency of its water, its navigableness for fhips of large burthen, and the vast riches conftantly paffing upon it, conveyed from all parts of the world, it far exceeds all rivers of the universe. Its name is derived from the Thame and Ifis which join in one stream at Dorchester in Oxfordshire; from thence the united ftream continues its courfe, and is joined by feveral other rivers-and waters Wallingford, Reading, Marlow, Windfor, Staines, Kingfton, where the tide reaches it, and other places, in its way to Westminster and London. Below the old bridge, it is covered for miles with vast numbers of fhips, of all burthens and from all nations - and continuing its courfe to the fea, it increafes to a great breadth at Gravefend, and receives the Medway not far from its mouth. Its magnitude about London was formerly much beyond what it is at prefent. As fea fhe..s were formed in digging for a founda tion of St. Paul's church, after the fire of London, it appears that the current of the river originally extended where now the hill is on which the cathedral (tands : and Christ. Wren was of opinion, that the whole country between Camberwell hill, and the hills of Effex might have been a great frith, or finus of the fea, leaving a large plain of fand at low water through which the river found its way. The flat fands on each fide of the river above and below London, now good meadows, were gained by large banks, raifed probably by the Romans, and that ftill remain, which reduced the river into its prefent channel. The first mention of a bridge over the Thames at London, is in the year 1017, when Canute king of Denmark came to befiege the city. King Richard I. anno 1197 granted the city of London a charter, by which the city claims the confervancy of the river from its junction with the fea eastward, fo far weftward as it is known by the Thames. The jurifdiction hath been often contefted. However, for a long feries of time, the extent hath been admitted from Colne-ditch a little weftward of Staines-bridge to Jendale east, by the Medway, including part of that river and the Lea. DEBATES (9) A For the LONDON MAGAZINE. DEBATES OF A POLITICAL SOCIETY. MARCH I. (Continued from our laft.) BOUT five o'clock the order of the day was read, for the House to go into a committee to take into confideration the prefent ftate of the linen manufacture of Great-Britain and Ireland, A number of petitions were prefented from different places, ftating feveral evils, and fhewing how detrimental fome of the expected propofitions would be to the manufactures of this kingdom. Sir Thomas Clavering, chairman, ordered the petitioners to attend immediately, and ftate their objections to the committee. This mode of proceeding was very ftrongly refifted by Governor Pownall, Sir George Younge, and Mr. Dowdeswell, and as warmly contended for by Sir Gilbert Elliot, Mr. E. Burke, General Conway, and Lord Frederick Campbell; the motion was, however, put, and it was agreed, that the petitioners fhould be called in, but none appearing, the committee proceeded. The report of laft year was first read, and after that the feveral petitions which had been presented by either party fince the commencement of the prefent feffions. A controverfy arose between some of the gentlemen, whether the report fhould be read as it was only ex parte evidence, but it being proved that the committee which received the evidence was an open one, that point was given up. Meirs. Anderfon and Goldy were then called to the bar; the fum of their teftimony was, that the linen manufacture of Scotland had decreased between 2 and 3,000,000 of yards in the courfe of last year; that the value of what was ftamped during the fame period was fhort of the preceding year 226,000l. that the average price of the cloth fold in the year 1769 was 128. 3-12ths the yard, and in the year 1773 but 9d. 5-24ths; that four whole counties, Glasgow and Paifley included, out of 6,oco looms, hid 2,500 unemployed; that the proportion of thole that were in general idle was at leaft 1-3d; that out of a certain diftrict in the county of Sutherland, 600 out of 1,800 fpinners had emigrated, and fo in proportion from feveral other places fpecified; that fome of the linens of 1771 were still on hand unfold; that the trade, without the fpeedy interpofition of parliament, muft be totally ruined; and, on the whole, that there were not, in the beginning of the prefent year, much more than half the weavers Jan. 1775. employed throughout the kingdom of Scotland and North of England. The House broke up at eight. March 4. At five o'clock the order of the day for a further enquiry into the ftate of the linen manufacture was ordered to be read, on which Sir John Wrottelley defired, that it might be deferred a day or two longer, as the American papers ftood for Monday. Governor Pownall defired the fame, as, he faid, there were feveral other manufacturers who were in great apprehenfions from the decifion on the linen manufacture; that there were now people in town to defire longer time, from a county where the woollen branch annually amounted to 3,195,000l. of which 2,000,000 worth was annually exported; that he thought so valuable a body ought to be heard. General Conway oppofed its being put off, and faid, American affairs had nothing in the leaft to do with this; that they had only four evidences to call in, to prove the state of the linen trade in Ireland-evidences were accordingly called in, who proved that the trade had been on the decline of late. March 8. The order of the day for a further enquiry into the state of the linen trade was read. Governor Pownall faid he had evidence to fhew how materially this enquiry would affect the woollen trade. He was answered by Mr. R. Whitworth, Gen. Conway, &c. who urged, that this was not a proper time for fuch enquiry. Evidences were called in from the counties of Wilts, Dorfet, Hants, and Somerset, who proved that the linen trade had been on the decline of late years; that near one half of the looms were unemployed, and the confequence was, that the manufacturers were drove to great neceffity, and many of them become burthenfome to the parish. They were examined as to the growth of flax, and asked, how much an acre would produce? The answer was, on an average 255lb. which fold at 9d, or 9d. halfpenny per pound; that the ground was 20s. per acre, it coft 20s. more to be cultivated fit for fowing, and the feed and labour after coft about 20s. more, which made the whole expence on one acre 31. That the growth of flax was more beneficial to the farmer than wheat, although the ground did not bear flax every year; B the 10 Debates of a POLITICAL SOCIETY. the ground the first year bore flax, the second wheat, the third barley, the fourth oats, and the fifth grafs, or lay fallow. They were asked their opinions, if laying a duty on foreign linens would enable them to fell their linens cheaper? The answer was, the price was too low already. If laying a duty on foreign linens would not make the prices of British linens dearer? No direct answer was given. A dispute arofe between Governor Pownall, the lord advocate for Scotland, Mr. Ongley, Gen. Conway, Mr. Cavendish, Mr. Hopkins, &c. whether it was proper to ask the witnesses their opinions, or whether the witnefies were to declare any thing but fuch facts as had really happened; which dispute ended unfatisfactorily. March 10. The Houfe refolved itself into a committee on the linen manufacture, when Mr. Clements was examined, and confirmed the evidence he gave laft year before the committee, relative to the decline of the linen trade at Darlington, and its neighbour hood, in the county of York. He added fome further circumftances relative to its still more rapid decline fince that period. Governor Pownall begged leave to lay before the committee fome very important information he had received from Ireland; he faid it was the report of a committee of the House of Commons of Ireland, fetting forth the claims that country had upon this to give it every poffible encouragement in the improvement of the linen manufacture, exclu ve of all others; and another report from the linen-board, fhewing the prefent ftate of it, the caufes of its decay, and the probable means of retrieving it. He then produced a letter from Sir Lucius O'Brien, chairman of the committee, in answer to one he had wrote to him on the fubject, which accompanied the two reports. The first contained an hiftorical account of the fteps taken immediately fubfequent to the Revolution, to render the linen manufacture the ftaple of Ireland, as the woollen was of England; the ideas that prevailed on both fides of the water to effect it; the line then drawn to prevent the interference in future between the two; the feveral acts of parliament made in both kingdoms in confirmation of this convention; and laftly, the period which first introduced a jealoufy, and broke that mutual confidence fubfifting between both kingdoms, in breach of the compact fo religiously obferved for the first three reigns fucceeding the Revolution. The report from the linenboard confirmed the parole evidence hitherto given at the bar, relative to the state of the trade, the number of unemployed looms, the ruin of the manufacturers, the decrease in the export, &c. &c. Befides these there were a variety of other motives affigned, fuch as a want of the natural growth of flax and flax feed, ftagnation of credit, money Jan. spent by abfentees, rife of rents, restrictions, and difcouragements by the British parliament. The remedies propofed were, encouragements for the raifing and cultivation of flax, collecting the duties on foreign linens in the spirit in which they were held as to the real value of the goods, conftruing fome of the acts of the British parliament in a liberal manner, with almoft an infinity of regulations, conformable to the idea which prevailed at the time Ireland relinquished all claim to the export woollen trade, in favour of England. Thofe reports having taken a full hour and a half in reading, Governor Pownall moved, that Do&tor Williainfon, a native of Pennfylvania, might be called in and examined. The governor called this witnefs, in order to invalidate the teftimony of those who attributed the migrations from the North of Ireland, so the decline of the linen manufacture in that province. His evidence was, that for the laft two years, eight thousand people each year had gone from the North of Ireland vo Philadelphia, and for twenty-five years before there had gone between two and four thoufand. He was examined as to the state of indented fervants, how they were used on their arrival in America, and whether they were not fold in the fame manner as negroes ? He answered they were fold for the time they had indented themselves, on purpose to defray the charges of their paffage; that during the time of their indenture they had no wages, only clothes; and when their time was expired, the laws of their country obliged their mafter to give them a new fuit of clothes, an axe, a hoe, and a mattock. He gave his opinion upon feveral other matters; when Sir Thomas Clavering faid, this was only hearfay evidence. The witnefs was ordered to withdraw. A debate, of a few minutes, arose between Governor Pownall, Sir George Yonge, Lord Frederick Campbell, and Mr. Coxe, whether or not this was proper evidence, and whether it tended any thing to the point in queftion? Mr. R. Fuller faid, his motive for enquiring into the manner in which indented perfons were treated in America, was, to thew our deluded poor how they were impofed upon, and that they emigrated to become flaves. The witness was called in again, and gave a particular account of the ufage emigrants met with on their arrival in America, which was that they were treated kindly, and not with cruelty, as had been intimated. March 16. A petition from the merchants of London trading to Hamburgh, and other parts of Germany, Holland, and Ruffia, was prefented, praying to be heard by themselves before the committee. A motion was then made by Governor Pownall, That Mr. Glover be heard as agent at the bar in their behalf. A very long debate en sued, 1775 Debates of a POLITICAL SOCIETY. fued, Whether or not he should be permitted to act in that capacity; which, after a variety of other propofitions, was confented to. Mr. Payne, governor of the bank, was next called to give evidence, and the questions were put to him by Mr. Glover. Mr. Payne's teftimony confifted of feveral computations and extracts, taken chiefly from papers before the Houfe. The only matter of any great confequence was, that the importation of foreign linens had decreased eleven million of yards in the year 1773. Several other debates occurred in the courfe of the evening relative to order, and the admiffibility of feveral fpecies of evidence offered to be given. March 22. The order of the day for the whole Houfe to go into a committee for a further enquiry into the ftate of the linen trade was read, and Sir Thomas Clavering took the chair. Mr. Glover and Mr. Payne were called in, the latter of which read an account of the rife of the linen trade in Scotland from 1757 to 1772, which was from nine to thirteen millions of yards, but in 1773 it had decreafed three millions of yards. He then read a paper of the ftate of the linen trade in Ireland from 1757 to 1772, which appeared to be from thirteen to twenty millions of yards; and in the year 1773 it had decreafed only forty-nine thoufand yards. He was then asked if he knew any thing as to the decline of the trade, or the time and caufe of fuch decline? He mentioned, that the non-importation agreement in America had been a great detriment to the trade, and the late failures had greatly hurt public credit; but that the trade was now in a right course, and likely to flourish as well as ever. He read over calculations of the different average duties that German linens paid; he faid there were ten forts under that head, from 5d. to rod. per yard, and the average price was about 7d. per yard; but, by the fame calculation, they paid a duty of 8d. per yard. Being examined touching the ftagnation of credit in June 1772, he entered very fully into that fubject, and among several interefting obfervations informed the committee, that if the circulation had continued another year, public credit must have been totally rained, but that now it was happily upon the molt firm and stable foundation. April 12. The Houfe went into a committee to enquire further into the prefent ftate of the linen trade in Great-Britain and Ireland, Mr. Glover was called in, who examined Mr. Payne as to the different quantities of each fort of German linen he had made his average prices from. Mr. Philip Milloway was next called in, who was a great exporter, and spoke much against a higher duty being laid on foreign linens. Mr. James Pearfon was called in and examined for near an hour; after him Mr. Richard Woodhall, an importer of diaper table cloths, &c. and then Mr. Ifaac Walker, a great exporter of foreign linens printed in England, who all feemed to fpeak much in preference of German linens, as being the most faleable at foreign markets, and moft durable for wear. A motion was then made for the committee to break up and the chairman to report to the Houle that he had made fome further progrefs in the business, and ask leave to fit again. Mr. Glover engaged to finish the whole of his evidence in one day more. April 20. The Houfe refolved itself into a committee upon the linen business, Sir Thomas Clavering in the chair, when Mr. Glover, agent for the company of Hamburgh merchants, called in Mr. Harth, a German, who gave the Houfe a geographical account of every province, town, and village, throughout Holland, Germany, Pruffia,Hungary, Bohemia, &c. to which we export our woollen cloths, &c. He was very accurate in his accounts, and afforded the House great information. Mr. Glover being asked if he had any more evidences to call? replied, no; but begged leave of the House to make his obfervations upon the whole of the evidence that had been produced on the linen business. Leave being accordingly given, he, in a fenfible, fpirited, and judicious fpeech of upwards of two hours, fhewed the rife and progrefs of not only our linen, but woollen, and other trades. He likewife proved to the Houfe, the caufe of the decrease in the linen trade, that had been fo much complained of, which he attributed chiefly to the desperate ftate of public credit, occafioned by the vast quantity of paper circulation. He was very fevere upon the Scotch, saying they were the perfons who firft caufed and invented this paper circulation, and who would have brought us once more into the fame dreadful fituation as in 1772, had not parliament granted them (the Air bank)leave lately to borrow money on bonds. He faid, to impute the number of emigrations from Scotland, entirely to the decay of the linen trade, was an infult to common fenfe, for the decrease of their exports had not been fo much but might happen at any time from the flu&uation of trade. He was likewise very fevere on the cuftoms, in regard to the manner in which they made up their accounts, which he said they were wrong in, and ftill kept on blundering to the end. He propofed to the Houfe feveral plans for remedying this evil, often repeating the dreadful confequences of a paper circulation. After he had finished, Mr. Dempfter afked him to explain a small part of his fpeech, which he did not underftand: he readily confented. Mr. Dempfter proceeded to ask him, what he would wish to have done for B & the |