1673. he named both his father's death and his great grandmother's, Mary queen of Scots: he also turned to some passages in Heylin's History of the Reformation, which he had lying by him: and the passages were marked, to shew upon what motives and principles men were led into the changes that were then made. I enlarged upon all these particulars; and shewed him the progress that ignorance and superstition had made in many dark ages, and how much bloodshed was occasioned by the papal pretensions, for all which the opinion of infallibility was a source never to be exhausted. And I spoke long to such things as were best suited to his temper and his capacity. I saw lord Ancram helped him all he could, by which I perceived how he made his court; for which when I reproached him afterwards, he said, it was ill breeding in me to press so hard on a prince. The duke upon this conversation expressed such a liking to me, that he ordered me to come oft to him and afterwards he allowed me to come to him in a private way, as oft as I pleased. He desired to know the state of affairs in Scotland. I told him how little that kingdom could be depended on. [I saw he was firm to duke Lauderdale: therefore I laid the fault on others, and excused him the 358 best I could. But] I turned the discourse often to matters of religion. He broke it very gently; for he was not at all rough in private conversation. He wished I would let those matters alone: I might be too hard for him, and silence him, but I could never convince him". I told him, it was

a thing he could never answer to God nor the 1673. world, that, being born and baptized in our church, and having his father's last orders to continue steadfast in it, he had suffered himself to be seduced, and as it were stolen out of it, hearing only one side, without offering his scruples to our divines, or hearing what they had to say in answer to them; and that he was now so fixed in his popery, that he would not so much as examine the matter. He said to me, he had often picqueered out (that was his word) on Sheldon, and some other bishops; by whose answers he could not but conclude, that they were much nearer the church of Rome, than some of us young men were.

Stillingfleet had a little before this time published a book of the idolatry and fanaticism of the church of Rome. Upon that the duke said, he asked Sheldon, if it was the doctrine of the church of England, that Roman catholics were idolaters: who answered him, it was not; but that young men of parts would be popular; and such a charge was the way to it. He at that time shewed me the duchess's paper, that has been since printed: it was all writ with her own hand. He gave me leave to read it twice over: but would not suffer me to copy it. And upon the mention made in it of her having spoke to the bishops concerning some of her scruples, and that she had such answers from them, as confirmed and heightened them, I went from him to Morley, as was said

I carried

lingfleet to

him.

1673. formerly, and had from him the answer there set down. I asked the duke's leave to bring doctor doctor Stil- Stillingfleet to him. He was averse to it; and said, it would make much noise, and could do no good. I told him, even the noise would have a good effect : it would shew he was not so obstinate, but that he was willing to hear our divines. I pressed it much; for it became necessary to me, on my own account, to clear my self from the suspicion of popery, which this extraordinary favour had drawn upon me. I at last prevailed with the duke to consent to it: and he assigned an hour of audience. Stillingfleet went very readily, though he had no hopes of success. We were about two hours with him, and went over most of the points of controversy. Stillingfleet thought, the point that would go the easiest, and be the best understood by him, was the papal pretensions to a power over princes, in deposing them, and giving their dominions to others and upon that, he shewed him, that popery was calculated to make the pope the sovereign of all christendom. The 359 duke shifted the discourse from one point to another; and did not seem to believe the matters of fact, and history alleged by us. So we desired, he would call for some priests, and hear us discourse of those matters with them in his presence. He declined this; and said, it would make a noise. He assured us, he desired nothing, but to follow his own conscience, which he imposed on no body else, and

i (Page 309.)

k The kingdom of Navare has been held by the crown of Spain, ever since the year 1512, by no other title than pope Julius the

second's excommunication of king John, for being in confederacy with Lewis the XIIth of France, upon which Ferdinand the catholic took possession. D.

that he would never attempt to alter the established 1673. religion. He loved to repeat this often. But when I was alone with him, I warned him of the great difficulties his religion was like to cast him into. This was no good argument to make him change: but it was certainly a very good argument to make him consider the matter so well, that he might be sure he was in the right. He objected to me the doctrine of the church of England in the point of submission, and of passive obedience. I told him, there was no trusting to a disputable opinion: there were also distinctions and reserves, even in those who had asserted these points the most and it was very certain, that when men saw a visible danger of being first undone, and then burnt, they would be inclined to the shortest way of arguing, and to save themselves the best way they could: interest and self-preservation were powerful motives. He did very often assure me, he was against all violent methods, and all persecution for conscience sake, and was better furnished to speak well on that head, than on any other. I told him, all he could say that way would do him little service for the words of princes were looked on as arts to lay men asleep: and they had generally regarded them so little themselves, that they ought not to expect that others should have great regard to them. I added, he was now of a religion, in which others had the keeping of his conscience, who would now hide from him this point of their religion, since it was not safe to own it, till they had it in their power to put it in practice: and whenever that time should come, I was sure, that the principles of their church must carry him to all the ex

1673. tremities of extirpation. I carried a volume of judge Crook's to him, in which it is reported, that king James had once in council complained of a slander cast on him, as if he was inclined to change his religion; and had solemnly vindicated himself from the imputation; and prayed, that if any should ever spring out of his loins that should maintain any other religion than that which he truly maintained and professed, that God would take him out of the world. He read it: but it made no impression. And when I urged him with some things in his father's book, he gave me the account of it that was formerly mentioned'. He entered into great freedom with me about all his affairs: and he shewed me the journals he took of business every day with 360 his own hand: a method, he said, that the earl of Clarendon had set him on. The duchess had begun to write his life. He shewed me a part of it in a thin volume in folio. I read some of it, and found it writ with a great deal of spirit. He told me, he intended to trust me with his journals, that I might draw a history out of them. And thus, in a few weeks' time, I had got far into his confidence. did also allow me to speak to him of the irregularities of his life, some of which he very freely confessed: and when I urged him, how such a course of life did agree with the zeal he shewed in his religion; he answered, Must a man be of no religion, unless he is a saint? Yet he bore my freedom very gently, and seemed to like me the better for it. My favour with him grew to be the observation of the whole court. Lord Ancram said, I might be what

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He