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throught it necessary to renew their ap- ' followed by others. He would give the plication to the house. They had not, motion his decided negative. Wbat however, changed their sentiments on could a committee do? If it took the the subject. He then proceeded to state security proposed by the right hon. genthe grounds upon which he would give tleman opposite, they could have no asa most decided nieyative to the motion, surance that it would be allowed : and for referring these petitions to a com- even if it should be agreed to, it would mittee. In the first place he supposed only be transferring that veto to Bonait would be admitted, that there ought parte which had been refused to the soto be an established religion. The con- vereign of those kingdoms. stitution in its best times bad recognized Sir J. Newport remarked, that almost the necessity of this, allowing, however, every time this question came to be disa fair and liberal roleration to those who cussed, the objections to it varied.--The dissented from the establishment. If coronation oath, which had been formerthe appointment of the Roman catholic ly held out as such a formidable obstacle, prelates was to be governed by French was now consigned to oblivion. The influence, the danger would be great. coronation oath was never understood to The petitioners urged their pretensions, have applied to a case of this kind, by withont any qualifications whatever, and any party, at the time it was established. upon that principle the discussions had Much had been said about the doymas on most former occasions proceeded. Of the Romish church, when it would The vero was a recent notion-a mo-' have been much better to have consider deru discovery. Now by what had that ed how the population of these kingdoms been produced ? Not any ctrange that should be united in interest and equality had taken place on the continent ; for of rights, when such an union had been the pope was formerly as much under forined on the continent against us. The the influence of bonaparte as now when petitioners came to have their RICHTS be had him in chains. As to the rejec- restored to thein. He next adverted to tion of the veto, he certainly respected the hardships under which the Roman ibat proceeding as the result of a con- catholics laboured; they could not rise scientions regard to the tenets of the to the higher ranks in the army--theyRoman catholic church. But when the could not hope for a command where reto bad been rejected on that ground, they could highly distinguish themselves. what possible reason could there be to No Marlborough could arise ainong the believe that this proposition would be catholics. Being without hope of ataccepted, which was a much wider de- taining the higher situations, they could parture from the doctrines of the Ro-' bardly be very anxious to qualify theminan catholic church? The veto merely selves for them. Then gentlemen had vested a negative in the hands of the no objection to praise Blake and O'Donking, leaving the chief part of the power bel, who had distinguished themselves in the hands of the pope; but this would in the Spanish service. But why drive be shoving the pontit entirely out of the these men to foreign countries, to look business. It was a complete violation for that rank in the military life which of the catholic unity, and infinitely more they could not attain in tbeir own counincosistent with the dogmas of ihe Roi try? Why exclude them from their just man catholic persuasion than the veto. rights, froin an idea of their attachment That there might be persons among the to France? Had they not been found Roman Catholics, ready to agree to in all parts of Europe fighting against these expedients, for the sake of conci- France ? _Then the exclusion in the law liation, was very possible. There were, was as complete as in the army. A Roiu all persuasions, some who held their man catholic was admitted to the bar, tenets so loosely, (liberally, he believed, but yo farther; he could not even reach was the modern term,) that it was als the dignity of a serjeant at law. Was it most incomprehensible how they could wise or politic to keep persons in that Teally consider themselves as belonging situation, divided from the state. Then, to that persuasion to which they pro- in the army, catholics might in Ireland fessed to adbere. Many of these might rise to a rank which they only bad by be very respectable people.--But such sutferance, the moment they set foot in men could not be regarded as the guides this country. Remarking further on the and the lights of the Roman catholic disabilities of the catholics, he observed church, and their example would not be that they could not be sherifts or sub

sheriffs. How was it possible for any lics, upon every ground of justice and people to bear with patience such exclua policy he concurred with them both, he sions? The penal laws, had, indeed, could not agree in coupling such an inteen tempered by the growing liberality, trinsic right with any condition, such as of the protestant, but the catholic ought the Veto, which that body felt to be ingot to be left to the lenity of the pro- compatible with the faith which they protestant.

fessed, and the discipline to which for so Lord Castlereagh observed, that the many centuries they had stedfasily adcatholics, at the time of the completion kered. He absolutely would deny the of the measure of Union, had no right truch of these grounds, upon which a to entertain the supposition, that the surrender of their religious discipline was Irish guvernment at that period pledged asked. The Irish catholics never had itself to give to the catholic body the any other intercourse with foreign privileges they now demand. The noble powers or potentates, but the mere aclord contended, that the reluctance ex- knowledgement of the spiritual power of pressed on the part of the Irish catholics the pope.-And, therefore, to deny, at to cede the security required of them, that day their title to the rights of freewas a proof that that body was more un men, and to the blessings of constitu-der the im:nediate controul of the papal tional liberty through the appreheasion hierarchy, than any other catbolic peo- of their religion leading them into an inple in Europe. He denied, that even in tercourse with hostile countries, was Spain there existed such an unqualified nothing less than recalling into banetul derotion to the papal authority in that operation all those caluinnies and misrespect; he meant with reference to the representations, which were so profuseappointment of their bishops. Ile next ly circulated by those numerous libellers instanced France, where, he contended, of Ireland, from Sir John Davis, Cor. that the pope had no more to do with the &c. down to those of a more recent penomination of the different bishops than riod. Having thought it necessary to he had to do with the nomination of the state thus much as to the recommendaprelates in any protestant country. It tion of the veto, he would next advert to would be found, from a variety of in- the great question itselt. The great and stances, that there was no country in prevalent delusion was, that by its op Europe in which the population was in posers it was generally considered oua state of greater dependence upon their iy as a catholic cause. It was not so ciergy than Ireland. The noble lord limited, the dangers of the empire made coocluded with an appeal to the house it a protestant one; neither was it a danto take into their due consideration the ger unfelt by the Irish protestants, inaspropriety of their entering into any con. much as he was firmly persuaded that lict with the pious and scrupulous reluc- mine-tenths of that body in Ireland were tance of an exalted personage, not more impressed with the paramount necessity Hustrious in raok than in virtue.

of catholic concession. Such a persuaThe boa. Mr. Lambe was for the mo sion did not rest upon surmise. The tion : he said, that the perseverance in great protestant landholders had declathe rejection of the catholic claims must red their opinions in its favour. But inevitably lead to the destruction of the vital as its adoption was to the safety of empire.

Ireland, it was not less so to the security The hon. Gen. Matthew stated, that of England---not only of England he the strong and conclusive conviction he would say, but of Europe. For upon entertained upon this great question, the strength and security of the British could not suffer him to forego the oppor Empire, depended the hope of recovery tunity of declaring to that house and to to the subjiigated nations of the cont the empire his reasons for the vote he nent. It therefore behoved that house, shoold ihat night give in favour of the if the claims of Ireland were of no value tancipation of four millions of his in its consideration, to reflect that, by countrsien. It was not his intention their disregard it risqued the safety of to go at any great length into the sub- Great Britain. If the system oficruelty, ject, discussed as it had been so ably in 'tyranny and oppression-the unceasing the tko specches of the right hon. mover policy pursued in Ireland, for sir hunund the hon. seconder (Mr. Grattan aud dred years of British connerion, was not ETJ. C. Hippisley). But though in the at length to terminate, what remained of Bertion of the claws of the Irish cathor the liberties even of this country would

not long survide. Cruelty and oppres- inflicted. Let him Not be told that he sion, he would 'repeat, fortified in that was drawing an exaggerated statement, assertion even by your own historians as incredible as it appeared; for the atroci to former times, and convinced by hus ties which it delinenied, he could state own observation in more recent periods. place and time. They were darly repeatThe hon. general here read some extracts ed in the Castle-yard of Dublin, in the from Morrsson, of a correspondence be- Royal Exchange, in Major Sandy's pretween Lord Verulain and Secretary Ce- vot, and in Mr. Beresford's riding house. cil, in the reign of Quieen Ehzabeth, They took place during the administra. wherein the former drew a most famnent- tion of that worst lord lieutenant ( among able description of the then state of Ire- the many with which this unhappy counJand, under the administration of the try were afficted) that ever was sent to Lord Deputy Mountjoy, where the un- Ireland-namely, Lord Camden, now a happy natives were forced to subsist confidential minister and secret adviser of upon the dog-nettles collected in the the crown. But it were somewhat tolefields-where the women were actually rable even if such barbarities were conforced by the dreadful necessities of fined to the unhappy persons first made hùnger to be cannibals, and were then the victims of such cruelty. In that pehanged for the offence. When these riod of unbounded outrage upon etery. facts were communicated to the Queen, principe of justice, humanity, and of lun, her answer to her minister was, “ It is even the cries of the widowed mother and « you have committed these things; but orphan child became incentives to the lust « I fear that a similar charge attaches to of a brutal soldiery; and many were the

me, as Varro stated to Tiberius, 'that instances where the wides and daughter's, « I committed the flock not to shepherds in the very view of their agonized pa« but to wolves." Such was the descripó rents, were shamefully and barbarously tion given by British authorities of the violated by, he was sorry to say it, Ensystem under which Ireland groaned in glish fencibles and German mercenaries ! their time. Yet barbarous and atrocidus · But it would be said, that such deploraas was that system, he had in his own ble consequences followed from the contimes, in this enlightened æra of the duct and the violence of the Trish people, world, in this humane reign, seen as bar- and were not to be attributed to the misbarous, as atrocious, as oppressive, and rule of the government. What was the almost as incredible acts, practised by answer? It was this! that with a change i and under the cognizance of the Irish of systein, even for a short season, peace government. There were before him ho returned. Lord Cornwallis succeeded nourable members who could not deny Lord Camden; conciliation took the his assertions. He did not utter them place of coercion, and Ireland became lightly, nor upon the authority of any tranquil and composed. Was that honse, second person. He spoke from the les- then, prepared to say, in the present timony of his mon senses. In defiance of state of the world, that it was determined. edery principle of justice, in violation of to persevere in a systern of policy toevery enactment framed for the protection wards Ireland, froni which such calamiof the subjects' liberty, he had himself ties bave already flown? Was it ready seen honest, industrious, and innocent to abide by the course pursued by a set men, drugged from their homes to the most of men who, after what had already tadismal dungeons ; hurried from thence ken place, in consequence of their mis- . without trial, nay, without charge, either conduct, ought and would not be trustto a triangle or a gallows, to be cor- ed by an honest house of Commons. It tured or half-hanged, as un adjudged pu- was the height of madness longer to tonishment for any offence, real or supposed! lerate the doctrine of proscription against No such thing, but to extort, by most a people whom you have thus treated exaggerated torture, either a confession a people who at this moment compose of his guilt, or an indiscriminate im- one half of your army and navy-a peopeachment of those whom the govern- ple who, when called to fight the battles ment were pleased to consider obnoxious of the empire, even against an enemy But even if the sufferers were guilty, such professing their own religion, have ever a system was in direct violation of the gallantly performed their duty. What positive clause in the great charter, did be, as the representative of Ireland, which provided that in punishment, no ask from that house? What that house cruel nor unusual punishment should be was bound by every principle of justice,

by the faith of solemn treaty bound, to oppressive tythe system of 16 millions grant to Ireland--bound to it by the of debt--of your improvident exactions treaty of Limerick, which, on the part and grinding taxes-of her proportion to of Ireland, was settled and concluded your sinecures and pensions. She could by the Irish chieftains at the head of an bring into the field an army equal to Irish catholic army, with the English cope with any this country could furnish generals and the lords justices on the to the full as well coininanded, and as part of England, a compact signed, seal. well disciplined. Before communication ed, and ratified by King William IIT, in could reach your metropolis, by a genewhich it was provided (for, from the ral rising of her people she would be in usual ignorance of that house upon Irish possession of every arsenal and depôt, and Subjects, it was necessary to state the resources she could find in one million facts), ibat the catholics of Ireland and a half of absent property. Ile was should be reinstated in all the advan- not to be told, that what he had then tages which the loyalty of their ancestors stated, was the evidence only of notoentitled and obtained for them in the rious traitors. Whatever their conduct reign of Charles II. and which were had been, there was no man ever doubts low claimed by their descendants upon ed their knowledge of the country; and the same undeniable grounds. Let those it was to be recollected that such authowho still were determined to refuse the , rity had in that house been quoted by petitions of that people, before they an- the king's ministers in opposition to canounce that important decision, pause tholic claims. upon the capacities of that country, Every commanding motire of hunan should your perverseness drive her to a reason and policy called upon that house mindication of her wrongs. What did to reverse its system towards Ireland. the evidence produced before the select In bringing them in his very humble committee, in the year 1799, communis manner before it, he felt he had done Cate? Was it not undeniable, that Ire- his duty as a devoted servant to that Jand had organized for resistance 300,000 country to which he had the honour to men. That confident in her own means belong, and as one most anxious to con. to effect her own object, she refused to nect the two mutual bonds of equal teceive an army of forty thousand men rights and equal laws. With respect to offered by the government of France. the vero he would not pretend to say, If the refusal to conciliate should un- although he gave it much attention, that bappily force her to that lamentable he so understood it in all its consequenchoice, what can prevent her from falle ces as positively tu decide upon it. But ing under the dominion of the conqueror whatever was his own opinion, be would of the continent, or of standing a sepa- never set it up in opposition to the cons rate independent island under the pro- viction of four millions of people upon tection of France? In either alternative a point connected with their own faith upon what tenure would the greatness and religious discipline. He nust how. and prosperity of Britain depend? With ever state, that the catholics of the French ships in the ports of Ilolland, great county of Tipperary, which he had Spain, and Ireland, manned with Dutch the honour to represent, had in certain and French sailors - the brothers of resolutions passed in March last, agreed those very men who have contributed to to transfer the appointment of bishops the support of your naval glory (a laugh from the pope to a doinestic nomination. from the ministerial benches). The hon. For himself, he would say, that whatever gentlemen may laugh, but there was lit- decision the catholics of Ireland came de subject for such a feeling, when they to, in that he would acquiesce, deterrecollected that an invading army, with mined to give their great cause his unmeans of conveyance in the ports of Vigo, qualified support, deto or 10 veto. His Ferrol, aud Corunna, was within 46 object was to place Ireland uoder the hours of an island where the whole po- same laws, and with the same rights polation were dissatisfied and proscribed. that Great Britain enjoyed. He "fell Let not the house deceive itself. Let it the justice and the merit of the course coasider, whether Ireland had not every he recommended, convinced that union thing to gain, and nothing to lose by the and conciliation would make that part change. To be sure it would get rid of of the empire pot only invincible but in some things. It would get rid of a code vulnerable, of penal and galling restrictions-of an

| vet. II.

Lord Jocelyn did not apprehend any VETO. This he shewed by referring to great danger to the state from catholica card upon which Dr. Milner, in the concession, provided the catholics were presence of Lord Fingal, marked the ready to give to the protestant establish- terms of the vero, and still inore from ment the security which it was bound to a letter written by the Doctor the day seek. In the late resolution of the ca- after that interview, in which letter the tholic body, they determined not to Doctor stated his desire to communicate yield; and, with every respect for many more distinctly the proposition of the of them, to whose loyalty and honour catholic prelatés. He declared his con." he would ever hear his testimony, be viction that there was no danger to be felt it his duty to oppose the motion. apprehended from Ireland; but that,

Mr. Shux (Dublin) cordially agreed if properly treated, she would prove our with his right hon. friend and colleague, strength and security. All that was in thinking it would be a happy day in now asked was, that the house should Ireland, when so great and desirable go into a committee. There were no an object could be folly accomplished. great concessions asked; let only the This great end can only be brought a- cominittee be gone into. What was bout by mutual concession; and if any the state of Europe at this moment?" of us believe, without such security, tbe Was it not reduced under the dominion constitution would be in danger, can of one man, the greatest, probably, any liberal catholic blame us for requi- whom the world had ever produced ;ring that security in the first instances one who was sent, as it were by ProviLet the catholice give the security their dence, to accomplish things which could warmest advocates require of them, and hardly have been supposed practicable. every hberal Irish protestant will be He was a man not only of great talents, rejoiced at being enabled to admit his but probably of greater talents than any countrymen of every religious persuasion other man of recent times or of antiquity, to the full benefits of the constitution; who had ever existed. His talents were all be desires of the catholic is, that he equally gigantic with his ambition; and will enable him to give him what he the people whom he commanded were looks for; this is what he requires, and equally endowed with talent, and also all he requires. He knows the value, with ambition, as binself. It was in the necessity of conciliation; but to be the power of Britain not only to do away sincere, it must be reciprocal. He any antipathy which their conduct toshould for the above reasons vote against wards the Irish might have created, but going into a committee, which could even to convert it into the most inviolanot be attended with any good ; but let ble friend. The Irish were willing to that spirit of conciliation which is evi- prove themselves the rallying point of dently gaining ground in the house and ihe empire against the French governor, the country work a little more, and such who wished to make himself tbe uncona confidence bad he in the good sense trouled Sovereign of the earth. It might of that portion of his countrymen, that not be the duty of a member of parliahe had no doubt of their seeing their ment to state what was the opinion of own interest in due time, and coming the Sovereign, on any particular subject, forward to give us that security which but, unquestionably, it became the dualone could justify this house in com. ty of a minister, when the point at issue plying with the prayer of their petition, was one must conducive to the support and which their oldest friends think they of the throne, to warn the sovereign of should not refuse.

the feelings and sentiments of his people, Mr. Ryder contended strongly against and even to enforce on the royal ear the right now claimed by the Roman the necessity of compliance, though that catholics, denyir.g, as they did, the measure should not be agreeable. Ameright of VETO, which they had formerly rica was lost to this country, not by the in profession only, but never in reality, advice of ministers, but by a vote of that authorised their supporters in this and house; and if parliament was not on its the other house of parliament to concede guard, 90 would it be with Ireland. to them.

After some observations fron Mr.' Mr. Ponsonby asserted that the friends Perceral, and Mr. Canning against the of the Irish cattolics io parliament had motion, and of Mr. Whitbread and Mir. authority from their delegate in this Herbert in its favour, Mr. Hutchinson country to offer obeir accession to the moved to adjourn the debate to Friday

next, which was agreed to.

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