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mands; but those concessions, on the contrary, he contended, had done good, and from the present, therefore, as necessary to complete the good effects of the former, the greatest advantages might be expected. His lordship then made some animadversions on the speech of the noble secretary (lord Hawkesbury) on the former night, and vindicated the conduct of the noble baron who was the author of the motion. If ever he had heard a great constitutional question argued with that cool and temperate mederation which became its importance, it was on that occasion by the noble baron. If the noble lord had said that such a measure as that prayed for in the petition would ultimately prevail, he could only mean that reason, and an enlightened policy, would ultimately triumph over those little prejudices that were the greatest obstacles to the measure; a sentiment he thought which could not easily have been misunderstood, and in which he readily and sincerely concurred. The noble earl farther contended that they owed the Roman catholics of Ireland the prayer of their petition, as a matter of justice as well as of expediency, because it had been held out to them as an inducement to their union with this country, and the expectation of which had contributed in so great a degree to the accomplishment of that object, that it was probable that, without such expectation, that event would not have taken place. A noble lord (lord Hawkesbury) had laid it down as a principle that this petition ought never to be granted. He thought this a very imprudent declaration, as well as highly degrading to the Irish cha-racter, particularly as our army and navy were so much indebted to Ireland for their supply. The noble lord had declared, that he had no confidence in their principles, and was afraid of the bad consequences that would ensue from the hostility of their religion to the civil rights of the country. But he wished noble lords to recollect, that many of our best rights had originated under Roman catholics, and when that religion was the religion of the country; and as a proof that difference in religion was not so incompatible with the duties and relations of citizens, he could not help reminding their fordships, that even in Roman catholic countries, protestants were sometimes employ ed by the government and permitted to hold offices of trust. The ablest minister and the greatest soldier that France could ever boast of were both protestants, and no bad consequences were found to ensue from that circuinstance. He denied that the late rebel

lions were at all connected with the grounds of the present petition, and urged the advantages that might be derived from making magistrates of the country gentlemen, whose religion being the same as that of the peo ple would give them greater weight and influence, and reconcile the people to their authority. The noble earl concluded by urging the propriety of receiving the Roman catholics to a participation of the rights of the constitution, as a measure of both justice and expediency.

The Earl of Oxford supported the petition, and disclaimed all connection with a certain person who had been alluded to on the former night (Arthur O'Connor) since he had heard that he had joined the enemy.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire, perceiving a noble and learned friend near him (lord Carleton) anxious to deliver his sentiments upon the important subject then under their lordships' consideration, was extremely unwilling to prevent the house from hearing the noble lord; but having resided for so many years in Ireland, having during a considerable portion of that time held a high official situation in that country, and having been the individual who introduced the bil of 1793, he was absolutely precluded from giving a silent vote. In offering his senti. ments against the motion of the noble baron, however they might militate against the prayer of the petition, he was under no apprehension of being cikirged with prejudice or intolerance; to such an imputation he would answer by a reference to the bill of 1793, and it would be unnecessary for him to desire a more effectual justification than would be found in the provisions of that bill. It had given to the Roman catholics of Ireland the full enjoyment of a perfect equality of civil rights with the rest of his majesty's subjects, with an exemption from certain political obligations which are withheld from all except the protestant dissenters of that country. Under the impression of every thing that had been already conceded, he was never more surprised, than that the noble baron, whilst deprecating inflammatory language in others, should himself resort to so extraordinary a position, as that the refusing to grant what the Roman catholics had sought for in their petition could be justified only upon the principle of their being deemed traitors, and unfit even to be permitted to take the oath of allegiance, and if that were the case, severe and oppressive as the penal code: had been, it ought to be re-enacted. Such an argument from the lips of the noble baron could not fail to ex

cite considerable astonishment; and more had been vested in other hands; in the especially with those who are disposed to hands of men of whom he was not disposed resist the repeal of the test and corporation to speak with severity but when he obacts in Great Britain; and were it just, it served that they (he meant the catholic must equally apply. What effect such a committee) employed as their agent Mr. declaration might have upon the persons Theobald Wolfe Tone, a man, not even of affected by those acts, he would not under- their own persuasion, who was the founder take to anticipate; but he did not think it of the society of united Irishmen, who was consistent with that moderation which the at the very time employed in an attempt to noble lord had so strongly recommended. form a traiterous conspiracy for the purpose So far from agreeing with the noble lord, of effecting a separation between Great Brithe earl of Buckinghamshire was decidedly tain and Ireland, and who was engaged in a of opinion, that considering the tenets of the correspondence with the French government Roman catholics, the indulgencies they had with a view to the procuring their assistance received from their sovereign and the legis-to further his designs, the noble lord would lature could only have been the result of a not say, that connection with such a man confidence in their loyalty; but so long as was proof of disloyalty, however obliged he they acknowledged a foreign ecclesiastical might be to admit that it was calculated to jurisdiction within the united kingdom, it excite suspicion. The noble lord then read, was impossible to entrust them with any from the publication (subsequent to the bill large share of political power. Doctor Troy, of 1793) of the proceedings of the Roman a man of ability and unexceptionable cha-catholic committee, the following resoluracter, in his pastoral letter of 1793, ex-tion: Resolved, that the sum of fifteen presses himself in the following manner-hundred pounds, together with a gold medal, That catholics are obliged to believe as an of the value of thirty guineas, bearing a article of their faith, that the pope or bishop suitable inscription, be presented to Theoof Rome, as successor of St. Peter, is the su- bald Wolfe Tone, esq. agent to the compreme visible head of the church on earth,mittee, as a testimony of his services and and the centre of catholic unity, with a pri- our gratitude." His lordship then adverted macy by divine right, of real authority and to what had fallen from the noble baron rejurisdiction in the universal church, and specting the expectations the catholics might that all catholics owe him canonical respect have been induced to entertain at the time and obedience on that account; and that the union was under discussion. The noble the supremacy of the pope is one of those baron had fairly admitted that no pledge was points on which all catholics are agreed as given, whatever hopes might have been enan immutable article of their faith." His couraged from an assurance that the situalordship then put it to the house, whether tion of the catholics would receive an impersons professing such a doctrine could partial consideration in the parliament of safely be admitted to the higher offices of the united kingdom. The noble lord said, state or to seats in parliament. His lord-as far as the observation could have reference ship then proceeded to state that the noble to his sentiments upon the subject, having baron having appealed to those peers who been one of the persons called upon, to assist had held official situations in Ireland for in preparing the articles, he must confirm their sentiments respecting the loyalty of the the declaration of the noble baron, that no catholics, he should declare his without any pledge had been given; but to what extent Brezerve. He was satisfied it was better for the catholics might have been justified in inhim to answer distinctly to that appeal, lest dulging a sanguine expectation from a disan interpretation should be put upon his cussion of their situation in the imperial par silence which was not conformable to his liament he could not attempt to form a conreal opinion. He had no hesitation in say-jecture. He certainly could not charge ting, that the conduct of the persons of high himself with having con'ributed to their dis rank and the gentlemen of the old catholic appointment. In the house as well as out families had uniformly been distinguished of it he had always stated the principle upon by loyalty to their sovereign and attachment which he acceded to the union; a principle to the government of the country; but he that must preclude him from acquiescing in was concerned to be under the necessity of their being admitted to seats in parliament. adding, that those persons had ceased to have The noble baron had felt, that whilst Ireany influence upon the catholic body that land remained a separate kingdom, the abthe inflactice formerly exercised by them jections to catholics being eligible to scats in

the house of commons were almost insuper- lands for lives, a great proportion of the pea-' able. The earl of Buckinghamshire was of santry have freehold tenures. His lordship opinion, though not exactly upon the same then asked, if any person who was convergrounds, that the arguments against their sant in the character and disposition of the sitting in the imperial parliament were Irish catholic, would venture to state, that in equally forcible. In their (the catholics) an electioneering contest between a prosituation, however, he could perceive a ma- testant and a catholic, the influence of the terial difference. From being a majority in protestant landlord would stand a competia separate, as they would become a minority tion with that of the popish priest. The arin the united kingdom, their pride would guments deduced from the interests of the naturally be less affected at the continuance popish religion, the possible, or rather cerof the disability. They might expect a more tain relief from the payment of tithes, with unbiassed consideration of their interests, the variety of inducements which the ingewhen in their opinion local prejudices and nuity of the priest would suggest, could partialities are less likely to prevail. The leave no doubt of his ultimate success. The irritation that had been produced from a mischief that must arise during the few years variety of circumstances, had a direct ten- that such a contest would continue, the dency to lead to such a conclusion, and his manner in which it would be conducted, lordship saw no prospect of permanent and the animosities that it would create, his tranquillity in Ireland, except by means of lordship said, might be better understood by legislative union with Great Britain. With a recital from the history of Ireland, than by every disposition upon these grounds to give any representation that he could make. He his support to that measure, his lordship ex- then quoted a passage from Leland, who, in pressly declared, that it would have met describing the struggle for power which took with his most strenuous opposition, if he place in Ireland in the time of James the could have anticipated the probability of an First, says: "Agents were dispatched from acquiescence in the prayer of the petition upon the pale into every province to support the the table. It went, in the view he took of election of their friends, and to entreat the it, to the total annihilation of the protestant assistance of every man of quality or inteinterest in Ireland. The system of repre- rest in this time of danger. The clergy sentation, as settled at the union, had been preached the cause of religion, and deso formed by the abolition of the boroughs, nounced their excommunications on those which had been created as a counterpoise to who should presume to vote against the the power of the catholics, and by throwing friends of the holy Roman church." Hav the whole weight of the representation into ing endeavoured to convince the house, the counties, that the share the protestants that, in three provinces out of the four, would be able to retain, after the catholics Connaught, Leinster, and Munster, the resat in parliament, would not be sufficient to presentation, with scarcely an exception, leave them any influence in the country; would be catholic, his lordship proceeded to and although the noble baron had treated state, that in Ulster the catholic, with the such an idea with no small degree of con- protestant dissenters, constituted a great tempt, saying, that nothing but bigotry proportion of the population; and said he could induce any man to entertain it, the would leave to the house seriously to consi noble earl was ready to acknowledge him-der the effects that such a weight of dissentself a bigot upon that subject; having the ing interest thrown into the house of commost perfect conviction, that if such a step mons might have with respect to the secu was unfortunately taken as to admit the ca- rity of the church establishment. How tholics into the house of commons, in the soon the common object of all the dissenters course of a very few years there would might be accomplished, must depend upon scarcely be a representative from Connaught, circumstances,; but that that object would Leinster, and Munster, that was not of that be the destruction of the property of the persuasion. In those provinces the number church, no doubt could be, entertained. His of catholics to protestants are computed as lordship then adverted to the evidence of six to one, and the freeholders in nearly the Doctor Macnevin, a catholic and a rebel, in same proportion. The protestant landlords his examination before the committee of the would depopulate their estates if they attempt- Irish house of commons, in 1799. Q ed to dispossess their catholic tenants; a measure at all events difficult to accomplish, a3, from the practice in Ireland of letting the

Have you seen a resolution of the Leinster provincial committee of the 19th Fe bruaiy, 1798, viz. that they would not be

diverted from their purpose by any thing which could be done in parliament, as nothing short of the total emancipation of their country would satisfy them?" A. "I have." -Q. "Do you think the mass of the people in the provinces of Munster, Leinster, and Connaught, care the value of this pen,vise their lordships to direct their conduct. or the dip of ink which it contains, for parliamentary reform or catholic emancipation?" A. I am sure they do not--but they wish much to be relieved from the payment of tithes." His lordship then said it was extraordinary to observe how much even the language of the protestant dissenter in England accorded with that of the catholic dissenter in Ireland. In the debate upon a motion for repealing the test and corporation acts in the year 1790, Mr. Burke, in the course of a most able speech opposing that motion, produced a letter written by Mr. Fletcher, a dissenter, stating, that the principles held at a meeting of dissenting ministers, at Bolton in Lancashire, were so violent that he would not stay; it described, that one member, on being asked what was their object, and whether they meant to seek for any thing more than the repeal of the test and corporation acts, answered in the language of our Saviour, "We know those things which we are not yet able to bear." And, on another member's saying, 65 give them a little light into what we intend," informed him," that they did not care the nip of a straw for the repeal of the test and corporation acts, but that they designed to try for the abolition of the tithes and the liturgy."-The noble baron had adverted to the apprehensions entertained from the introduction of forty-five members of the presbyterian church into the house of commons, at the time of the union with Scotland, and had asked how far the predictions of that day had been realized. The noble earl admitted that they had not. But he would ask, whether the day might not yet come, if the prayer of the catholic petition was complied with, when the fate of the church of England might depend upon the Scotch representation-when a question might arise whether the revenues of the church should not be made applicable to the exigencies of the state! The sentiments of the Irish and English dissenter had been already expressed. The chirch of Scotland has been emphatically described as being built upon a rock of poverty; and when a great object was to be obtained, who, would be responsible that the Scotch members might not

church of England upon a similar founda tion? The noble lord considered the expe riment too desperate to be hazarded, and trusted their lordships would not make it. The principles established at the revolution were the landmarks by which he would ads

The blessings they had enjoyed, by the ope ration of those principles, had not been equalled by the people of any country that had ever existed. The British constitution had stood firm amidst those storms by which Europe had been convulsed during the critical times in which it had been their lordships destiny to live. The interests of the church were so interwoven with those of the state, that the one could not be shaken without endangering the other. No substantial reason for the proposed innovation had been adduced, whilst much cause for remaining as we were was felt by every man. The people of England, he said, looked to the decisions of their lordships with an anxious expectation, and he trusted they would not be disappointed. Feeling as he did, that the prayer of the petition might be fatal to the title of the house of Brunswick to the throne of the united kingdom, his lordship would not place the noble lord upon the woolsack in the distressing predicament of presenting a bill to his majesty for his as sent, which, exclusive of other important considerations, was calculated to destroy the permanent interests of his family. His lordship would be no party to such a proposition. By leaving the petition upon the table for so many weeks, the noble baron who introduced it, had given that time fore deliberation that was due to the imporsi tance of the subject. He was persuaded, its had been fully, impartially, and most seriously considered. The result, in his mind, was a determination to vote against going into the committee.

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Lord Carleton said, that the measure proposed would affect the whole empire, but more particularly Ireland; therefore, several of the observations which he meant to make would specially relate to the measure, as it' might peculiarly affect that country. The main object of the petition is power. In his opinion the Roman catholics already have as much power as they ought to possess under a protestant government, and therefore he would oppose the petition: The concessions in 1793, as to reinoving pe nalties, were wise, but, as to every things beyond that, doubts might be entertained as:

who, would be be disposed to place the to the wisdom of the measure, Howevergs

it is to be observed, that the parliament of the state, is the reverse. An exclusion from Ireland only gave the right to possess in- holding certain situations, deemed necessary ferior offices, but did not transfer the power to the safety of the state, neither stigmatizes of the state. The concessions already made nor enslaves. An equal diffusion of political to the Roman catholics have extended their power amongst all the different sectaries influence, increased their demands, and would, in their union against the established multiplied their discontents. Nothing hither religion, denounce its downfall by the sys to conceded has given them content; what tematic, persevering, deliberate, though slow 'probability is there that any thing short of conjunct exertions of religious zeal, politi all will satisfy them? To guard against their cal ambition, and inordinate thirst for pow being superior in power, care must be used er. To bestow such power on Roman cato prevent them being equal. The petition tholics, and to with-hold it from other sec claims every thing; refusing to commit it taries not belonging to the established reliis an answer to the claim of every thing. gion, would prefer Roman catholics to some If there are minor concessions which might whose motives of action were less objectionbe safely granted, when the Roman catholics able than those of Roman catholics. There think fit to ask them distinctly as matters is no foreign ulterior supreme authority of favour, they may call for a distinct con-whith the tenets of other religions bind sideration. Catholics are not eo nomine excluded from holding any offices of the state, or from sitting in parliament. The obstacles which stand in their way are certain oaths, a declaration, and the sacrament of the Lord's supper, according to the rites and ceremonies of the church of England, which are to be taken by persons of every persuasion upon taking possession of office, and the same oaths and declaration to be taken on coming into parliament. Roman catholics are less restrained in Ireland than here; there the Roman catholic oath qualifies for all offices civil and military, save a few, which are specially excepted. Not so here; though the English Roman catholic oath is more forcible than the Irish, and binds the Roman catholic to support the protestant succession, whilst the Irish does not. He agreed entirely with the noble lord who immediately preceded him, in the well-merited eulogium which he had pronounced on the character and conduct of the Roman catholic noblemen and gentry of Ireland; they were men of great integrity, honour, and loyalty, and many of them had fought very gallantly in quelling the rebellion of 1798. They had disclaimed the obnoxious doctrines contained in the decree of the fourth council of Lateran. That disavowal was consistent with morality, social duty, and good sense. He gave credit to their assertion, and he did 'not rest his opposition to the petition upon those objectionable tenets; other tenets, which greatly influenced his opinion, were such as their religion bound them, as good catholics, to enforce. They were not such as reflected disgrace on the Roman catholics, though they might expose the constitution in church and state to some hazard. To tolerate is wise, to invest with the powers of

their professors to maintain as superior to the established legal government of the em pire; but if Roman catholics were in possession of political authority, their religious principles would bind them to use it in an endeavour to render the constitutional authority of the empire subservient to a foreign dominion. By statutes passed in both countries in the reigns of Henry the Eighth and Elizabeth, in unison with various more ancient statutes, the king is declared supreme head of the church, and the pope's authority, spiritual and temporal, is, to all legal effect, declared void. The king, in virtue of this authority, convenes, prorogues, dissolves, regulates and restrains synods or convocations, appoints or recommends to bishoprios and certain other ecclesiastical preferments, and has the dernier decision and appellant judicature over all ecclesiastical causes. That the authority of the state is not supreme in the countries subjected to, its dominion is à most dangerous doctrine; any interposition in these dominions by a foreign judicature, governed by the laws of a foreign prince, laws tending to the subversion of the protestant religion, leads to ruinous consequences. Roman catholics acknowledge and pay obedience to a foreign, final, ecclesiasti cal authority, which can make laws upon spiritual subjects, and, in violation of the laws of these countries, enforce them (with> out the aid of any temporal process) by ees clsiastical coercion and punishment. That foreign ecclesiastical authority is under the influence of the ruler of France. Before the French revolution, if any potentate had attempted to enslave the pope, all other Reman catholic countries would have interposed in his behalf; such interposition. against France cannot at this day be expect