Mr. Browne, and Mr. Howorth spoke in favour of the committee. Mr. Peter Moore moved, in addition to the gentlemen named by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "That all the members of that House, who, in the former parliament served in the committee for investigating Mr. Palmer's Claims, should be members of the present committee." He, however, abandoned this amendment, and substituted, "That all members who please to attend the said committee, shall have voices therein." SWEDISH SUBSIDY.] Mr. Ponsonby said, that some time since he had taken the liberty of asking the noble lord opposite a question, respecting the situation of this country with regard to Sweden, and also with relation to Denmark; he now wished to know whether any sum of money had been advanced to the former power, in addition to that which had already been appropriated for the purpose, from the vote of credit? On the answer he should receive to this question, in the first instance, entirely depended the course he should finally pursue. On this proposition the gallery was cleared for a division.-During our exclu sion we understand, some farther conver-culty sation took place, and Mr. Moore consented to withdraw his amendment. The Committee, of course, remain as they were proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. INSOLVENT DEBTORS.] Sir S. Romilly, after presenting a Petition from certain insolvent debtors, called the attention of the House to a Bill for the relief of prisoners confined for debt, which was then pending. That Bill, he hoped, would undergo a mature consideration. It made a considerable alteration in the law of debtor and creditor, and was expected with trembling anxiety, by many persons throughout the country. The alterations to which he alluded, would, in his opinion, greatly improve the law of the country. They would, at the same time, support the prosperity of the country, and tend to ameliorate the manners of the great mass of the population. To this Bill, he understood, there would be powerful objections; and all he meant to impress on the House was, that members should pay that attention to it which its importance deserved, and not permit it to be thrown out, from ignorance of its provisions. The committee stood for Wednesday next; and as it would probably come on then, he hoped the attendance of members would be nu merous. Mr. Kenrick said, that, in consequence of the litt attention which had been paid to the Bill, he had, from time to time, postponed its consideration. CATHOLIC QUESTION.] Mr. Grattan gave notice that he would, early in the next session of parliament, move for leave to bring in a Bill for the relief of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in IreJand. Lord Castlereagh said, he had no diffiin stating, that certain advances had been made to Sweden, beyond those appropriated from the vote of credit. He, however, rather hoped that he should shortly be enabled to make a communication on the subject to the House. Mr. Ponsonby observed, that when the noble lord said he rather hoped he would be able to make a communication, he could not help wishing that the noble lord had stated the fact with more confidence. However proper it might be for government, when parliament was not sitting, to make use of a part of the vote of credit, still, he was of opinion, when the House was exercising its functions, the appropriation of the public money without any notification to parliament, could not be allowed. The noble lord had informed the House, that certain sums had been granted to Sweden, independent of those taken from the vote of credit: if he could express himself with a little more confidence, on the subject of the intended communication to the House, he should say nothing more on the business; but, if he could not state, that, immediately after the recess, he would be prepared to make the communication alluded to, he (Mr. Ponsonby) should consider it his duty to give notice of a motion on the subject. Lord Castlereagh was decidedly of opinion, that he should be enabled, very speedily, to make the communication. He was desirous of stating this originally, with no other reserve, than that he could not absolutely pledge himself to it. His reason for this was, the anxiety he felt that the question should be discussed with as much information as possible, that parliament might be perfectly capable of judg. ing of it accurately. Mr. Ponsonby said, as the noble lord had proceeded to a considerable greater degree of confidence than he evinced in the first instance, he should say nothing farther on the question; but as the general discusthe subject. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS.] Lord Castlereagh moved the order of the day, for the House to resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Affairs of the East India Company. Mr. P. Moore wished to know, whether the new and altered string of Resolutions, or those formerly proposed by the noble lord, were to be the subject of discussion in the Committee? With regard to the altered Resolutions, it was not many minutes since they had been put into his hand, and he had not even had time to read them. Mr. Baring thought it an extraordinary proceeding, that the House should go into a committee on a string of new Resolutions which no one had had time to read. The House should certainly be informed whether they were going into a committee on the old or new set of Resolutions. Mr. Grant said, it would be acknowledged on all hands, that the present question was of the last importance to the East India Company; and yet the court of directors had only that morning, been apprised of the alterations which had been made in the Resolutions as originally proposed. He trusted, therefore, that the noble lord would not press their consideration in that precipitate manner, when the court of directors, whom they so nearly concerned, had had no opportunity of forming any opinion upon them, and when they had not been perused by one tenth of the members of that House. Lord Castlereagh felt the grounds advanced to-night not much more weighty than those which had been urged on a late occasion. He fairly owned that he could not understand the policy of postponement. It would have been perfectly competent for him to have moved in the committee those alterations without any previous notice, but he was desirous of giving all the previous information in his power, and then the tactics were to represent the whole of the Resolutions as having undergone a change. The alterations were chiefly in the third Resolution, and there was a great deal of preliminary matter to be discussed before they should come in contact with it. If the House felt that there was any new matter in point of principle, he should allow it to form a fair claim for the postponement of sion would take place before they came to the details, he thought there was no good ground for delay. He had it in contemplation to propose that they should begin by discussing the second Resolution first, as embracing one of the great branches of the question, after which would follow the trade to India, instead of beginning with the first Resolution, which was rather to be regarded in the light of the preamble to a Bill than as any particular proposition. Mr. R. Thornton hoped the House would not plunge the court of directors into a debate on Resolutions, the bearings of which they could not possibly have considered. He trusted, that in a question of such immense importance, not only to the East India Company, but the empire at large, the House would proceed with all due caution and deliberation. Mr. Whitshed Keene objected to going into a committee at present. Mr. Canning agreed with the hon. gentleman, that it was incumbent on the House to proceed with the utmost deliberation; but could not prevail on himself to think, that postponement of the question from day to day was any deliberation at all. Were the proceedings postponed now, he had not the smallest doubt, but it would be considered out of doors, that the question was adjourned, at least for the present session. It seemed to be the idea of the noble lord, that the consideration of the first Resolution should be postponed; and that the Committee should that night come to the discussion of the second proposition, which respected the trade to China; and on which he (Mr. Canning) had given notice of his intention, to move an amendment, as to the time, during which the Company's exclusive trade with China should continue: but neither did he suppose that the discussion on the China trade could be satisfactorily gone into, till the sense of the House was ascertained, whether any alterations at all should be made in the Company's charter? Until the question were decided one way or another, it would be in vain to consider the limitations or restrictions which it would be fit to impose on their exclusive privileges. The first question, he conceived, would naturally be, whether any alterations should take place; and when that was decided, the consideration of the details would as naturally follow. Sir J. Newport agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that the country looked for the decision of the question, and the House had no option left but to proceed at once, or abandon the discussion altogether. Where further delay was spoken of, it looked too much like a wish to take advantage of the unavoidable absence of members at a later period of the session. Mr. Ponsonby confessed, that he, for one, entertained considerable doubts as to the propriety of coming to the completion of the measure during the present session, for in a short time there would not be a sufficient attendance for a satisfactory and final decision. But he was far from thinking that it was not right to proceed at all now on the contrary, he thought that much might be done though they might not have it in their power to go so far as to pass an act of parliament binding on all parties. There was one most material consideration which did not appear to have been sufficiently attended to, and that was, the proposition to allow the exclusive trade to the Company for twenty years more. Now, he confessed, that of all the propositions, none appeared to him so doubtful as that, for even though he might be disposed to think it right to renew the charter, yet he might object to the term of 20 years. This he merely mentioned in order to bring it under the minds of gentlemen, and not for the purpose of declaring any positive opinion. If the noble lord had resolved to proceed this session to the completion of the measure, the sooner he began the better for his own purpose. Lord Castlereagh said, that the further disposal of the question depended so much upon circumstances, that it would be presumptuous in him to say more than that he conceived the sooner they approached the subject the better. It would be no small progress if they did no more than understand each other, and sift the question to the bottom. He could assure the House and the Company, that if he resisted delay, it did not proceed from any uncandid wish on his part to decide has tily against the interests of the Company; but solely that they might make some progress in the discussion. The noble lord then repeated his opinion, that it was better to begin by discussing the second Resolution, leaving out the concluding words which had a reference to time; and after the opinion of the House had been ascertained on the two great branches of the question, the China and India trade, they could more conveniently apply themselves to the details. That was the course he had in contemplation, and as he believed that unless the House turned their backs on the measure, the sooner they were in the committee the better, he should persist in moving, That the Speaker do now leave the chair. Mr. Abercromby Robinson said, that his only reason for wishing a short delay was, that a most material alteration had taken place in the third Resolution. It went to establish a system of licences under the authority of the Board of Controul, and as that system, even in cases of necessity, was injurious, he trusted that it would hardly be adopted in making arrangements for India. Lord Castlereagh had no objection to say, that if the hon. directors did not wish a discussion on the third Resolution for the present, he was not disposed to press it. General Gascoyne said, that as the advocates of the Company sought a different ground of delay every day, the sooner the House proceeded the better. The House then resolved itself into the Committee: Mr. Lushington in the chair. Lord Castlereagh proposed that the Committee should proceed to the consideration of the second Resolution, which respected the continuance of the China trade to the East India Company. He suggested this mode from a conviction that the Committee, when in possession of the particulars connected with that trade, and with the relative situation of the Company, would be better enabled to come to a full and mature discussion upon the general subject. If any other course were pursued, it appeared to him that the House would entertain the consideration of generalities without any essential or particular benefit. He should, therefore, move the second Resolution in the first instance, leaving out the words of reference as to the period of time during which the Company was to be in possession of the privilege. He had had an opportunity of stating his views of the subject in this respect, and should not, therefore, unnecessarily occupy the time of the Committee in recapitulating his arguments; for there would, both with regard to the second Resolution, and to others, be many occasions of con sidering them at length, of proposing such alterations as might seem expedient, and of suggesting amendments upon all of them respectively. conduct of the House. It should, in fact, be understood plainly and unequivocally, that there did exist a Company with certain privileges, authorities, and immunities, whether of trade or government, before the particularities which might be classed under privileges, authorities and immunities, came to be discussed. Until such a Mr. J. Smith expressed his opinion, that | the best plan for the noble lord to pursue, would be to adhere to the measure as it originally presented itself to the House. He thought that it seemed impossible to consider the trade of China separately from the trade of India. They were, in fact, so very intimately involved and connected, that to enter into a separate dis-principle was admitted and recognised, it cussion, would but lead to intricacies and perplexities which it would be difficult to disentangle. was impossible that the House could make any way in the question which was submitted to their consideration. Without such a proposition, many minor points might be gone into, many subordinate topics might be started,-but still the want of a clear guide, a certain criterion, would be materially felt in the further progress and subsequent stages of the proceedings of the House. The second Resolution indeed stated, that the China trade was to be continued to the East India Company; but was it defined how that Company was to be constituted,-how it was to be gifted, either with commercial or political powers, Sir John Newport objected to the mode proposed by the noble lord, of beginning with the second Resolution. It would be, in reality, to prefer the consideration of a part to that of the whole--to neglect a greater for a minor point. The first Resolution was, in truth, that upon which depended all the arguments, all the evidence, whether for or against the East India Company's claims, which could be produced. The Committee were called upon, in the first instance, to decide whether there should or should not be a mo--what its privileges and immunities, either nopoly. Unless that most material point of government or of trade, were to be? were settled, it would be altogether idle Not a single point of all these material and absurd to proceed to minor considera- considerations was settled,-no: not even tions. Under this impression, he thought suggested; and yet the Committee were it impossible for the Committee to agree called upon to agree to a resolution grantto the noble lord's suggestion; and he, ing the continuance of the China trade to therefore, begged leave to press the abso- a Company of whom they knew nothing, lute necessity of considering the first Re-of whose powers and rights they had no solution. Were the Committee to act otherwise, he was persuaded their conduct would be attended with a very con siderable loss of time; and that the question which most peculiarly called for decision, would be left in a precarious and doubtful state. Mr. Bathurst contended, that it would, in every point of view, be more suitable to the objects before the Committee to take the second Resolution into their consideration. As the second related to the continuance of the China trade to the Company, and the third Resolution to the extension of the trade to the out-ports, it was evident, that in these two were comprehended all the great ends which were to be gained by the proposed discussion. Mr. Canning, without wishing to suggest any sentiment upon the general question, as it related to the interests of the empire at large, or to the interests of the East India Company, or as it might be supposed to involve and combine them both-thought it much better, as a guide to the Committee, that there should be a leading proposition, a grand principle laid down for the fixed standard, and which Company, when in the possession of the China trade, might be precluded from the beneficial and salutary exercise of it, by some subsequent regulation affecting their imperial government, or their independent commerce in another quarter. For his own part, he could never consent to grant the China trade to any Company not possessing the trade of India. He should not, however, take up and urge the grant of a term of 20 years to the Company, but he merely was desirous that the Committee should have, what appeared indispensably requisite, an affirmation or negation of the East India Company's existence. He could not for a moment imagine, that the House would enter into a variety of details and subordinate topics, which actually depended upon the affirmation or negation of that question. The Committee would not, he was convinced, forget, that the trade to China, or to India, was not the sole object for their consideration. They had to enter into a review of the Company's rights and claims in their political capacity. In that capacity many important tend, to grant them the exclusive trade to China? With this feeling, and these sentiments, he thought the first Resolution was that to which the attention of the Com mittee ought to be directed in the first instance, as the great ground-work of their subsequent proceedings, and the just and natural cause of all the effects that were to follow. So far he objected to the proposed mode of proceeding; and he considered that in bringing forward the first Resolution, the real objects for the consideration and decision of the Committee would be fairly attained. years. He did not, however, wish to press his proposition upon the Committee. Mr. Canning replied, that the arguments he had employed had been strengthened by the noble lord's remarks. topics strongly suggested themselves, and | as none of these were alluded to, and as that great Company was not mentioned as possessing governing powers, and as being the governing instrument of India, it was undeniable that those who held such an opinion could have no means, no opportu nity, in the course of discussing the second and third Resolutions only, of affirming that opinion, and supporting it by the arguments which they might be enabled to bring forward. He was therefore justified in expressing his opinion, that the Committee would act altogether more consistently by setting out with the consideration Lord Castlereagh thought, notwithstandof the first Resolution, omitting, perhaps, ing the observations made by the right a few things, and by deciding at once, as hon. gentleman, that the Resolution was so a necessary preliminary, whether the very general as to define nothing, and that Company was to exist, with all its impe- it might, if entertained, leave the whole rial rights and capacities? How was the question to be afterwards discussed. The trade to China to be continued according general debate would in reality range to the second Resolution, to which the under the second Resolution, and the noble lord wished, in the very first in- words, for a farther period of time to be stance, to direct the attention of the Com-limited' might be substituted, instead of 20 mittee? It was left for the Committee to decide, indeed, that it was to be continued to the East India Company; but with respect to the peculiar constitution of that Company, to the nature of its powers and privileges, and to its commerce either with India, or with any other part of the world, the Committee could form no opinion, for they had no information, no guide, no distinct statement, no specific grounds. To entertain the second Resolution, would be to begin where the Committee ought to end; for while it granted to the East India "That it is expedient that all the priviCompany the continuance of the privilege" leges, authorities, and immunities grantof trade to China, it left undefined the pri- "ed to the United Company of Merchants vileges and immunities of the Company, trading to the East Indies by virtue of without a certain and precise knowledge of any act or acts of parliament now in which the very trade so granted might" force, and all rules, regulations, and nor only be prejudicial to the Company; "clauses affecting the same, shall continue bat highly dangerous to the best interests" and be in force for a further period of of the empire. Were the noble lord's time to be limited, except as far as the suggestion entertained, the Committee" same may hereinafter be modified and would be obliged to proceed to a subordi- " repealed." nate topic, without any allusion to, or notice whatever, of the East India Company, as a great political, or a great commercial body. Yet these formed questions of a nature very distinct in their respective views. Although blended and interwoven, they could not, as a whole, be separately considered in their effect and operation upon the British empire in India, and the interests and prosperity of the state at home. Were the Company to be divested of their possessions in India, he would ask, to what use, to what purpose, would it Lord Castlereagh observed, that although he was by no means a convert to the right hon. gentleman's arguments, he was ready to concur in adopting any course of proceeding which might meet the wishes of the House. He therefore, should move the first Resolution: namely, On the question being put, Mr. Marryat objected to the Resolution as being too loosely worded, he thought the "privileges, authorities and immunities" therein mentioned, ought to be distinctly and clearly defined. Mr. Bruce rose. He introduced his observations on the subject, by stating, that his object was to submit to the consideration of the committee, in the shortest practicable manner, the series of events, which had marked the progress and actual state of the East India Company's affairs; leav |