That every fuch Papift fiould, on taking fuch lease, take the oaths of allegiance. And, That after the death of faid Papift, the leafe fhould gavel amongft his fucceffors; and, that if his widow or children fhould conform within twelve kalendar months, the conformist should have a larger fhare. A debate then began, the particulars of which were as follow: Mr. Burke, jun. The code of the prefent Popery laws was first intended as a barrier and defence again tyranny and oppreffion. The very fecond claufe of this bill, which alleges that the gavel law has had nearly its full effect, and mult shortly ceafe to operate, is erroneous; for this bill will manifeftly tend to flop its effects: Any oath of allegiance will be nugatory, without annexing there to an oath, acknowledging the King's fupremacy, and denying all power in any pope or foreign prince to difpense with Oaths: Though no Papift is by this bill to have more than one lot, yet, in fmall towns, fundry Papifts may take one lot each, till the whole town will be in Papitts hands; and gentlemen may easily forefee the confequence; therefore fince this bill is fraught with confequences hof tle to the Proteftant intereft, I hope gentlemen will proceed no further on it; and therefore I humbly move that the chairman do now leave the chair. the Popery laws. If the Papists once get power, they will re-enter on all the eftates in the country, to which they think they have a right. The defcendants of fuch Papifts whofe eftates were forfeited, ftill keep up the claims of their ancestors; and the extent thereof, and the ancient titles are carefully tranfmitted from father to fon, even of thofe who live abroad. In regard to church lands, dignities and prefentments, it fhould be remembered, that by the tenets of every Papift, he holds the Pope as patron thereof, and that in him is vefted the right of presentment to all ecclefiafiical benefices, and confequently of all tythes; therefore, they only wait for an opportunity of reentering upon what they think is their right; and will be ready to affift in their recovery on any invafion, which must be defirable to them. In regard to their oaths; and the likelihood there is of abjuring any temporal authority in the Pope, I will give a ftriking inftance. In the reign of Charles the IId, one Walth went to the Pope to ask leave to take oaths of abjuring all temporal authority: He obtained that leave, and, on his return, on applying to perfons in power here, he was allowed to call a fynod; but fo averfe were the Papists to the taking of fuch an oath, that very few of the clergy came to the fynod; and Walfi, and all those who affified at it, were all excommunicated. Thus we fee Papifts cannot be bound by oath: We must therefore do with them as Hercules did by Antaus, who, as often as he touched the ground, acquired new ftrength for oppofition; but being held up from it, was eafily vanquished. So, if we keep Papilts from touching our land, they will not be hurtful. In Mr. Clotworthy Rowley. The greateft part of the trade of every country is carried on by those who are not of the established religion of that country. Turkey, by Jews and Chriftians; in India, by the Gentoos; in France by the Hugonots; in Amfterdam, by thofe of all religions; in England, by Diffenters of different denominations; and here (in Ireland) by the Roman Catholics, who poffefs three-fourths of the trade; and yet, though we derive fuch great benefits from their industry, we fuffer them, with great ill policy, to labour under fundry difadvantages to which they are fubjected by the Popery laws, and which deferve to be relaxed, from any evil opeMr. Wood. There are fome confideration against our fellow fubjects. rations which I fhall mention, which will Mr. Mafon. This bill will affuredly thew how dangerous it will be to relax extend the benefit of the gavel, and no April, 1775. Mr. O'Hara. As most of the Papifts eftates have gavelled, the operation of that act muft foon ceafe; whereas, this new bill will extend the gavel, by giving them property that may be fo divided. D d bigot as if it was intended to divide and diftract the attention of government, to give him the greater profpect of fuccess. bigotry and fuperftition in the Papifts can be greater, than the over-regard and blind attachment fome gentlemen pay to the code of Popery laws, by the means Mr. Gardiner. Both humanity and of which, no more than poor 4055 Con- policy plead for the paffing this law, as formifts were made in feventy-two years, the Proteftants in this country are but out of about two millions of Papifts. It few, in regard to the number of the Cahas been faid that the defenders of Pope- tholicks, in this cafe we should take every bills, as they are reproachfully call- ry method to induce Catholicks to coned, were mercenary aids, but I fhall not form, or to live with fociality amongst be deterred by that from doing what I us. It has been ever obferved, that perthink is my duty. fecution encreafed oppofition. Times have changed, in regard to fuperftition, and to the rifings of the White Boys, who were Papifts, we may oppofe the rifings and violences of the Hearts of Steel, who Captain Jephfon. In regard to the Popery laws we may obferve, that they are fo full of perfecution, that they are written as it were in blood, and there can be no excufe to humanity for enacting them, but neceffity; but, no penal laws should be fuffered to subsist after the neceffity for making them had ceafed. We lament the impoverishment of our country, and large tracts of uncultivated land; but thefe dire effects have flowed, not from the reftrictions put on us by a fifter country; not from the oppreffions of landlords; not from the natural floth and lazinefs of the inhabitants; but folely from the influence of thefe Popery laws, which have made us a divided people. These laws are contrary to religion; for religion fays, bonour your parents, whilst they cry out, betray them. We may alfo obferve, that bigotry and fuperftition in Papifts is almost extinct, even in convents; the Pope's bulls which were formerly the terror, are now become the ridicule of the Catholic world; therefore as Papifts are not now what they were in former ages, they deserve a much different treatment from that which their forefathers received from our forefathers. Mr. Wood. Conformity in confequence of the Popery laws, has gradually encreased, except in the time of a rebellion. And though the Numbers of Conformifts were but 4055, yet do gentlemen count for nothing the defcendents of thofe Conformilts, which cannot make the amount lefs than 20 or 30,000, and when it is confidered that these were only of perfons of property, and that it was by fo much a leffening of the bulk of Papifts, it proves the great utility of thefe laws. If Popery is fo mild, and there is no fear of any disturbances from Papifts, whence came it that the White Boys, who were all compofed of thefe mild Papifts, gave us fuch trouble, and behaved with fuch daring infolence, diforder and cruelty? And let gentlemen remember, at it was at the precife time when an Con by Conflans was expected here, were all Proteftants. The oppreffive Popery laws have driven many of our countrymen abroad, whose wisdom has been confpicuous in the cabinets of foreign courts, and whofe heroifm has adorned, with never-dying laurels, the armies of foreign princes; I have had the honour of being acquainted with many of thefe exiles whilft I was abroad, and have lamented that the rigour of our laws had deprived us of them. The framers of thofe Popery laws were men, foured by recent and frequent feuds; we do not now ftand in the fame predicament. The Mortgage bill indeed is liable to exceptions, but none can be justly made to this; and I conceive it would be proper to give Catholicks some small property in this their native land, to attach them the more cordially to us. General Gisborne. I do not come with ready, prepared and fludied oratory, but will declare my thoughts, indigested as they are; and as they rife from what I have heard in this debate.-I should not perhaps oppofe this bill, if it was the only one of the kind now depending. But as I fee various attempts are making for Papifts to get landed property, I think it would be madness to trust them with power whilft they acknowledge a fupremacy in any other person than in the King, where, by our laws, it is eftablifhed. I therefore think the scheme is deeper laid than is now apparent; and that the manifeft decrease of conformity during thefe last two years, has been the confequence of their hopes to fucceed in repealing fome of the old Popery laws, which I muft confider as the bulwark of liberty and the Protefiant interest. Mr. Langrifhe. This law will afford new matter for the gavel to operate upon. Our fears of danger may be fecured by oaths; and, though, fome gentlemen have faid that Papifts can be discharged from their oaths, yet, if that was the cafe, cafe, so many Papists would not submit to difqualifications and inconveniencies, which they might avoid, by taking oaths with which they could difpenfe. An honourable gentleman (Mr. Wood) hath faid that the Gavel Law had not operated till the discovery claufe had been added. This I must deny, as the period of eight years between the enacting the two causes, could not fhew the force of a law which could only operate after demife. For my own part I am quite difinterefted in the event of this bill, and speak out of love to the Proteftant, not the Popith religion, which, I confefs, contains more abfurdities and fuperftition than any other extant. Mr. Barry Barry took notice of the fudied eloquence of two gentlemen, (Mr. Jephfon and Mr. Gardiner ;) and declared his opinion, that the Popery laws did not fpring from perfecution, but from neceffity and felf-defence. And, that he did not know who was meant by merceBary aids to Popery. Mr. Mafon replied, that he had been called a mercenary aid to Popery in a publick News-paper. Mr. Ponfonby. There is one evil that will arife from this bill, which has not yet been noticed.-It will hurt agriculture, by drawing people from the country to dwell in towns; the encrease of buildings will raife the price of house rent, and the influx of inhabitants raise the price of every neceflary of life.-This bill does not offer any inducement to conformity, for if a Papift poffeffes one houfe in town, or even fifty acres in the country, when either comes to be divided by gavel among five or fix children, their portions will be fcarce more than five pounds a year each, which cannot be thought a motive for conformity. Col. Browne. In my opinion papifts can be, and are, as loyal as any others: of which I will give an inftance: In the time of the late war 1 recruited the regiment in which I ferved with above two hundred papifts raised about Cork: they went to Canada, behaved bravely; and when in garrifon in a popifli town, and furrounded with papifts, whilft many proteftants deferted, not one of these papifts ran away. Nay more; when a report came that Ireland was invaded by the French (who, he kindly informed the house were all papifts) these pap:ft foldiers exprefled the greatest indignation and concern that they could not be present to affift their mative country. Mr. Ogle. There are but three motives to induce papilis to conform-Inte reft, love of power, or conviction; neither of which can be expected from this bill. It will not make it their intereft to be converted. No love of power can arife from it; nor will it add to their conviction. It is the intereft of the priests to keep their flock in their errors, for most of the common Irish priests are very ignorant, very bigotted, and fubfift only from the donations of the deluded lower clafs of people. Gentlemen have mentioned the Hearts of Oak, and the Hearts of Steel, on which I must observe, that the former, who were papifts, were treated with great lenity; and to punish the latter, who were proteftants, an unconftitutional law was paffed in this house. Mr. Bushe, thought the lift of conformifts would have been tenfold had it not been for the operation of the popery laws: a relaxation of which would be the only method to increase conformists. Mr. Serjeant Dennis. The fpirit af popery is evident by an act of King James, when in this city of Dublin, by which an hundred of the nobility, and three thousand of the gentry of Ireland, who were proteftants, were all attainted, and their lives and fortunes declared forfeited. It is ridiculous to expect that papifts will not endeavour to eftablish their own religion. It is equally abfurd to pafs this act to induce papifts to continue fo during their lives, for the only poffible chance that their children may conform and to give property to papifts, only that it may gavel and return again to proteftants, is like the child's play of fetting up a cock to be knocked down again. Nay, this bill will have another evil effect; it will raife the price of lands to proteftants, for papifts already give more money for even fhort leafes than proteftants can afford to do. : Mr. Hulley. The popery laws were made for two forts of papifts; thofe who had real estates, to which the gavel was pointed and those who by their perfonal property, might acquire real property, again which was pointed the difcovery claufe.-But as the bulk of papifts were thofe who had neither teal nor perfonal property, therefore, they could not be affected or induced to conformity by those laws: had it not been for which, as many would have conformed as were induced to do fo by the gavel. Therefore it will be beft to let this bill go through the committee, claufe by clause, that it may be amended where deficient, and made ufeful. Difference in points of faith is not the queftion: we differ in regard to D d 2 the the geography of the other world, I think there are but two climates in it, the papifts think there are three; but yet they might agree in the geography and cultivation of this world; and I am careless what they think of the next, if they will let me go quietly through this. Mr. Wood faid, landlords would be injured by this law. If what they had lea fed to a man went to his heir at law, the proteftant landlord knows where to refort for his rent; but if after the leffee's death it was gavelled to fix or feven, he would find greal rifque and trouble would enfue. Mr. Hellen. I fee fo many learned, fenfible and refpectable members of both houfes divided in their opinions of the expediency of relaxing or fuffering any alteration in the popery laws, it is a proof to me, that this is not a fit and proper time for fuch an attempt, to try any experi -ments. Capt. Wilson alfo declared his diffent from the bill now before them. The question was put, that the chairman do now leave the chair, Ayes Noes Majority 123 69 54 Teller for the Ayes, Mr. Burke. Teller for the Noes, Capt. Jephfon. The speaker then refumed the chair, and Mr. Burke, jun. moved, that the order for going into a committee on the popery bill, (brought in by Mr. Maunfel) for allowing papifts to take leafes for their lives be read. The order was read. Mr. Burke, jun, moved, that this order be poftponed till the first of Auguft, the glorious day on which the proteftant houfe of Brunfwick acceded to the throne. The question was put, and carried for the poftponing without any divifion. Colonel Blaquiere then arofe, and faid he was a fuppliant to the house, that it would now, according to order, go into a committee on the heads of a bill for amending the tontine act. This was frongly oppofed by Mr. Chapman, Mr. Ponfonby, and Mr. Barry, who faid the laft packet had brought over fubfcriptions for no lefs than 170001. and if this bill was poftponed for one week, it would be feen that there would not be any occafion at all for it. That it was extraordinary, that where gentlemen were fo fatigued by a debate of above fix hours, and at that late time of night, they fhould be defired to go into a committee. He therefore moved the queftion of adjournment. The houfe divided on this question, Ayes Noes Majority 58 90 32 Tellers for the Ayes, Mr. Barry Barry and Mr. Huffey. Teller for the Noes, Mr. Waller and Mr. Mason. The house then went into the committee (Mr. O'Hara in the chair) and went through the bill paragraph by paragraph, filling up the blanks, and making feveral amendments. The speaker then took the chair, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow, and the house adjourned. Saturday, Feb. 12.] In confequence of the report of the committee appointed to enquire into the petition of Sir Edward Crofbie, Bart, an addrefs was ordered to be presented to the Lord Lieutenant, to recommend the petitioner and his brothers and fifters to his Majefty. Heads of a bill for explaining a doubt arifing upon the laws for fupplying the city of Dublin with corn and flour, were prefented by Sir Lucius O'Brien, read and committed. The tontine bill was reported, agreed to, and fent up to the Lord Lieutenant. Heads of a bill for the more effectual proceeding against perfons ftanding mute on their arraignment for murder, felony, or piracy, were prefented by Mr. Carleton, read and committed. Monday, Feb. 14.] A felect committee was appointed, according to a late act, to determine the merits of the Newry election. Sir Richard Johnston, Bart. petitioner, against Mr. Corry, fitting. member. And heads of a bill to amend the roads in the county of Dublin, were presented by Mr. Gardiner, read, and committed. Tuesday, Feb. 15.] A petition from the corporation inftituted for the relief of the poor of Dublin, and under their great feal, was prefented by Mr. Conolly. It fet forth, that the carrying the law into execution, and the bringing the house of industry in Channel-row to its present perfection, were owing chiefly to the abilities and unwearied affiduity of Mr. Benjamin Haughton, of Ash-street. That Mr. Haughton's ftrict attention to the public fervice, had caufed him to neglect his own business to his great lofs, and he had never received the leat emolument or reward for his fervices. That the funds of the corporation did not enable them to allow any gratification to Mr. Haughton, they therefore humbly recom mended mended him to the confideration of the house. This petition was referred to a committee, and that the fame committee enquire into the prefent late of the house of industry. Mr. Chapman faid, one great cause of horfe ftealing in this kingdom, was the great facility with which the thieves could export them to Scotland, and avoid all poffibility of detection. He therefore moved for a clause in the revenue bill, to oblige all horfes, mares, and geldings, exported from Donaghadee, and other adjacent ports, to be entered by the owners. Mr. Barry moved for a return of all the fums fubfcribed in confequence of the annuity act. This was oppofed, as any information would be unfatisfactory, for if a retura wasmade of all subscribed, it would exceed the whole fum of 265,000l. when fome of the subscriptions were conditional, that the laft amending bill do pafs. And if, on the other hand, a return was made of only fuch fubfcriptions, as had alrea dy made their firft payment, it would then appear that not 100,000l. had been fo fubfcribed. On a Divifion there appeared, Ayes, for the Motion, 32 Noes, against it, 64 Wednesday, Feb. 16.] Dr. Clements brought in heads of a bill to amend the act paffed laft feffions for badging beggars, and the relief of the poor, which were read and committed. The house went into a committee, Sir Lucius O'Brien in the chair, on the heads of a bill to explain a doubt in the corn bill, and went through the fame. The fpeaker took the chair, and Sir Lucius O'Brien moved for a claufe to exempt corn, meal, and flour, from any duty on exportation. Mr. Chapman moved for a claufe to prevent any perfons making or felling malt, ale, or fpirits, from giving certificates for licenies. Sir Edward Newenham moved for a clause to inflict a penalty on any magiftrate who fhall take any fees for giving certificates for obtaining licenfes. These feveral motions were carried. The houfe went into a committee (Mr. Scott in the chair) and fat till within twenty minutes of twelve on the revenue bill. The first enacting clause took up eight hours. It was to allow revenue officers to require a writ of affiftance from the court of exchequer, to call all magif trates, and all others employed by the crown to their aid, whenever they pleafed. As all others employed by the crown pointed out the military, it was ftrongly contended that it was dangerous to give fuch a power to the lowelt coaft officer or gauger. The English revenue acts, and the English writ of affiftance were reforted to and read; a great number of alterations and amendments were moved for, to make the presence of a peace officer always neceffary, when any of the army was called out. Col. Blaquiere read a number of letters from the revenue board, afking military aid, and fhewing the impoffibility of collecting the reve nue without fuch affiftance. On the other hand, the illegality of the writ of affiftance was ftrongly urged, and the neceffity of not iffuing fuch writ without the cognizance of the barons of the exchequer. But every motion for the amendment paffed in the negative, without any divifion, except one made by Mr. Huffey, to introduce the words of the English act for the prefence of a peace officer; on which there were, Ayes 42. Teller Mr. Huffey. Mr. Huffey, at last said, fince he found there was no poffibility of carrying any amendment in the committee, he would try what he could do on the report in the house. Thursday, Feb. 17.] A fresh bickering began about the tontine bill, on a motion made for a return of the balance in the vice treasurers hands, on the 24th inftant, to which a number of embarraffing amendments were made, which only produced an ineffectual debate. The bill to amend the act for suppl5-ing the city of Dublin with corn and flour, was fent up to the lord lieutenant. Heads of a bill for the more easy recovery of fmall debts, were presented by Mr. Langrifhe, read and committed; and then the houfe in a committee, went thro' the revenue bill. Friday, Feb. 18.] The bill againft perfons ftanding mute, and alfo the bill to prevent forgery, were fent up to the lord lieutenant. Saturday, Feb. 19.] Dr. Clement moved for a claufe to include the town of Londonderry in the quarterage billcarried. The house received the report from the committee on the revenue bill. Mr. Huffey moved to amend the claufe on the writ of affiftance, by adding, that no application for faid writ fhould be effactual, |
