do not, Q. Do you know of any applicatim made to government for assistance, in order to enable the house of Boyd and Benfield to complete any instalment upon that -Joan? A. I do not.- Q. Were you in the habit of communicating with Mr. Boyd rela-tive to the engagements of the house? A. Certainly, relative to all the afairs of the house in general; but I cannot know whether Mr. Boyd communicated to me every thing that passed between him and other persons.- -Q. Do you know of any sale of scrip, or any endeavour to sell scrip, in the months of August, September, and October, 1796, for the purpose of furnishing money to complete any instalment that might fall due money market during those months, and from your recollection of the extensive concerns of the house of Boyd and Benfield, do you think that had any such attempt been made to discount navy bills, or bills accepted by the East India Company, in the hands of the house of Boyd and Benfield, that such discount could have been obtained? A., I I presume that such discount could have been obtained by the house of Boyd and Benfield at that period, with as much facility as by any other house of business in the City of London; but on recollection,. I believe that it was early in the year 1796 that the Bank of England eine to a resolution considerably to narrow their discounts, notwithstanding any ideas they might have entertained of the solidity of the paper offered, then.-Q. Were there, in the firm of the house of Boyd and Benfield, any other partners at that time besides Mr. Boyd, Mr. Benfield, upon the loan of December, 1795, within that period? 4. I cannot speak with certainty as to the particular period from memory, but the house being in the habit of holding considerable sums of scrip, it is extremely probable that they may have sold aand yourself?. No others.—Q. Did part of that scrip for the purpose of completing the payments on the remainder.Q. Do recollect you any. sale of navy bills, or bills accepted by the East India Company from their presidencies abroad, or any attempt to make such sale, in the months of August, September, and October, 1796, for the purpose of completing any instalment upon the loan of December, 1795, which might become due within that periad? A. I do not recollect any such sales for that purpose, but it is impossible for me to state from memory the various and large transactions of that house; they will all be seen, I have no doubt, in the books and papers of the house.-Q. In whose hands are those books and papers? 4. They are in the custody of the person or persons appointed by the Crown, under a writ of Extent against the House: I believe they are at present in the strong room of the late house of Strange and Company, Bankers in New Bond-street, who were appointed receivers by the Crown, with the consent and concurrence, I believe, of the assignees.-Q. Do you recollect, in point of fact, any navy-bills, or any bills accepted by the East India Company, having been sold by the house of Boyd and Benfield about the period alluded to, in Autumn 1796 4. I have no particular recollection. Q. Do you, recollect any instance, during the months of August, September, and October, 1790, of any navy bills, or bills accepted by the East India Company, having been either discounted, or attempted to be discounted, without success, by the house of Boyd and Benfield? 4. I have no recollection whatever of any such circumstance. Q. From your recollection of the state of the you never hear that Mr. M'Dowall was a that he had declined it. He was, I believe, an acting partner in Mr. Boyd's house at Paris, before the revolution.Q. Have you any knowledge of any agreement made by Mr. Benfield, for any purchase of any estate in or about Shaftesbury, in July, 1796? A. I have no knowledge whatever of Mr. Benfield's private or separate transactions; during the whole course of our partnership, I seldom had any communication with Mr. Benfield upon any subject of business whatever.- Q. Do you happen to know who was Mr. Benfield's solicitor at that time? 4. Mr. Benfield has employed at various times so many different solicitors, that I do not know with certainty who was his solicitor for Shaftesbury; but I believe Mr. Lloyd, in Bedford-row.- Q. Do you know whether Mr. Boyd was chosen to serve in Parliament at the general election in the summer 1796? A. He was.-Q. For what place? A. For Shaftesbury. Q. You have stated, that you had not the particular care of the cash in the house of Boyd, nor of course of the cash-book; did you however, at stated times, or frequently, review the cash-book, and take notice of the state of the cash? A. I have frequently looked into the cash-book, and taken notice of the state of the cash. but not at any stated 'periods.Q. Were all cash transactions of every description, regarding the firm, entered in that book? A. I believe they were.Q. Were all loans to and from the house entered there? 4. I believe they were. Q. Should you have deemed it a deviation from the course of business, if any loan had been made for the benefit of the house, and not regularly entered there? 4. I should certainly have deemed it a deviation from the regular and established practice of all anerchants.- Q. Do you recollect, during the months of August, September, or October, 1796, any entry of a loan for 40,000 1. from government from Lord Melville, then Mr. Dundas, from Mr. Long, or anonymous? 4. I do not recollect any such entry, or any such loan, being received at the house; but I have no doubt that if a sum of 40,000 1. was received by the house, it must appear in the books of the house.-Q. Did Mr. Boyd communicate with you fully and freely on the concerns of the house, stating, at all times, such difficulties as may reaso...bly be supposed must occur at times in the manage ment of all extensive concerns? 4. Mr. Boyd was daily in the habit of communica ting with me, or rather, I was in the habit of communicating with him concerning the affairs of the house; but whether Mr. Boyd Communicated fully and freely every thing he knew, it was impossible for me to say Q. Did he tell you at any time, to the best your recollection, during the months of Au gust, September, or October, 1796, that noless assistance could be obtained from some quarter for the payment of instalments due to goverment, a failure was to be appre hended? 4. I recollect that about the month of October, 1796, the house, generally speaking, was in difficulties, very large sums being due to it by various corresportdents; but I do not recollect any particular difficulty with respect to any instalments due to government.Q. Could such pressing difficulty, as before stated, have arisen without your knowledge. I do not conceive it POSSIBLE any particular difficulty could have existed with regard to the instalment of a loan, because it was at all times in the power of the house to have sold the scrip upon which such instalment might have been due; it might indeed, in particular circumstances, not be convenient to do so, on ac count of the great loss that would be sustain ed.. ་ -Q. Do you recollect a situation of the house in which their public securities would not fetch any price; and, on ac count of such circumstance, a failure was to be apprehended during the months mentioned? A. I do not recollect any period, at any time whatever, when public securities could not be sold at a greater or less discount, -Q. Have you any recollection of the sale, or offer to sell, of any public securities or scrip by that house, during the same period? 4, I have no doubt that about that period, sales of public securities must have been made by the house; but with respect to the parti cular sums, or securities sold, I can only re fer to the books of the house, it being im possible for me to state such transactions from memory- -Q. Who had the custody of the securities, bills, and other marketable papers, belonging to the house?. They were kept in a drawer, of which Mr. Boyd had a key, and I also had one Q. Could any quantity of such paper have been with drawn from such drawer, for any length of time, without your knowledge or observation? 4. These securities were daily given out, either by Mr. Boyd or by myself, as either of us happened to be present whea they were wanted, for the purposes either of sale, discount, or to receive the payment on such as had become due.. Was there. not an account kept of the centents of the drawer. There was no particular acs count kept of the contents of the drawer, other than that all remittances and securities were usually entered in the bill books, and when delivered to the cashier for the purs poses before stated, it was his duty to mark them off in those books; but bills were frequently taken out for the purpose of being -discounted when discount could not be regularly obtained, or when only temporary Joans could be had on the security of the -bills, in which case it is possible no such entry may have been made; the bills then ought to have been returned to the drawer.Q. Do you recollect the absence of any East India Company bills, or navy bills, from the drawer, to the amount of 40,0001., or thereabouts, without your knowing for what purpose they had been used? A. I do not recollect any such circumstance, but I have no doubt that if any such transactions took place, they would appear in the books of the house.- -Q. Did Mr. Boyd ever inform you he had pledged securities to such an amount, for assistance to make good an instalment upon loan? 4. I do not recollect that he did.- Q. Have you any reason to believe such pledge was ever made by the house for such purpose? 4. I have not.Q. In the event of any bills being taken from the drawer, and pledged to any party who lent money upon them, such party having received the payment of these bills when due, and discharged the debt due to himself from their produce, how would the entry respecting such transaction have been made in the books of Boyd and company? 4. 1 presume that the person would have been made debtor to cash to the account to which the bills or securities referred or belonged. discounted by the house, they will appear to have been marked off in the bill-book. -A. Would not such bills have been marked off in the bill-book as liquidated or paid? A. They would, if the cashier did his duty, although I had one key of the drawer which contained those bills. Mr. Boyd had complete and entire confidence in Mr. Libotton, and I delivered any securities to him that the drawer contained without hesitation, and without taking any note whatever of the bills so given out. The confidence of Mr. Benfield in Mr. Libotton was, if possible, still more entire; he proposed about the latter end of the year 1796, or the beginning of the year 1797, that Mr: Libotton should become a partner in the house, to which I objected, and of course it did not take place. Q. Were bills and securities to the amount of 41,000l. so marked off on or about the month of October 1796; or was an entry made of the nature you have described in a former answer? 4 I have already stated, that I have no particular recollection of the bills which appear to be abated to in that question; but I have no doubt, that if such bills were in possession of the house, or had been either sold or ૨. Q. Q Do you think that bills accepted by the East-India company, some of which had twelve and fifteen months to run, and navy bills, could have been discounted in the autumn of 1796 A. Í do not believe they could have been discounted of such long dates; but if it were legal to sell such bills, I have no doubt but it might have been practicable to sell them.- -Q. Did Mr. Boyd ever mention to you, that in the autumn of 1796, he had conversed with lord Melville, or the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting any assistance to be furnished to him by government, in lieu of securities which he was to furnish for that purpose? A. I do not recollect that he did. Had you yourself any conversation of the same nature with either of the above-named persons? A. I had not the honour of being at all known either to Mr. Pitt or lord Melville; I do not recollect ever having been in Mr. Pitt's presence on any occasion whatever, or ever been in lord Melville's presence since the house of Boyd, Benfield, and company, were in existence.You have stated, that you did not sign the contract of partnership with Mr. Boyd and Benfield; did you not consider, that the not having so done, would exempt you from any of the legal consequences of their failure? A. I believe it would have exempted me, had the establishment been in any foreign country, for instance, in Holland or in France, where such limited partnerships are not uncommon; but I have been advised or informed, that according to the laws of this country, any person who is held out to the public as a partner, or who secretely participates in the profit, is liable to the creditors of the house, although, as between ourselves, I considered I was not liable to any loss; I thought so at the time, but I considered the fortune of Mr. Benfield and of Mr. Boyd (as represented to me by Mr. Boyd) to be such as would place me above all risk.-Q. Did you consider yourself as partner at all, not having signed the contract of partnership? I considered myself liable as a partner to the public, but not bound by any particular stipulation which might have been entered in by Mr. Boyd and Mr. Benfeld, in their contract together. -Q. What do you mean by stating, that you acted chiefly under the direction of Boyd A. I mean, that my concern in the house being comparatively very small, it would not have been becoming in me to assume much consequence from it. Did you follow Mr. Boyd's directions in B cases respecting the concerns of the house? A Generally speaking I certainly did not, however, without expressing my own opiniom-Q. Did you believe now that Mr. Boyd communicated. to you all the money transactions of the honse. I have no reason to think that he with-beld from me any knowledge of the money transactions in general.Q. Then you cannot take upon yourself to say, that he did communicate to you all the money transactions of the house? A. I cannot positively say so, and certainly not in all the detail.-Q. You have stated, that Mr. Boyd had entire confidence in Mr. Libotton, the cashier; had you the same degree of confidence in Mr. Libotton? A, I had no reason to doubt his honesty, nor have I now, although my opinion in other respects was not altogether so partial as that of Mr. Boyd and Mr. Benfield appeared to be. 15th May.-Q. Is that book in your hand the cash-book of August 1798, of Boyd and Benfield? A. Yes. Can you point out in the books before you, the entry of the sum advanced to Mr. Boyd of 40,000l. in the year 1796, by lord Melville, or anonymous, which you may conclude to have been such advance upon the security of East-India company bills and other public securities? A. It appears by an entry in the cash book of 9th September 1796, that bills to the amount of 11,8281. 11s. gd. on the East-India company; to the amount of 5,0411. 1s. 8d. on the Treasury; a further sum of 11,000l. on the Treasury; and 12,8341. Ss. 2d. on the Victualling Office, making together the sum of 40,7041. Is. 7d. were delivered to Mr. Boyd te discount, or raise money upon them; that Mr. Boyd accordingly paid to the house on account thereof 30,000l. on the 9th day of September aforesaid, and a further summ of 10,000l. on the following day. I wish to state in explanation of my evidence on a former day, that in the first part of my examination, my mind bore upon an earlier period than I now perceive the question applies to. I was asked concerning the loan contracted for in December 1795: my answer referred to the preceding loan for the service of the year 1795, in which the imperial loan of 4,600,000l. was included; the loan contracted for in November or December 1795, consisted only of 18,000,000l. and did not include any loan to the emperor. About the 15th of April following, a further loan of seven millions and a half was raised for the service of the year 1796 ; this first erroneous impression ran through other parts of my evidence. I do not recollect any difficulty was experienced in money trans actions during the year 1295, but it is a fact generally known, that great incon veniences were sustained from what is usually termed a scarcity of money early in the spring of 1796; and from the time that the Bank of England came to the resolution of narrowing their discounts, that inconvenience continued to increase until the latter end of February 1797, when an order of council was made for suspending the iss of cash by the bank; in consequence of this general depreciation of credit, the Jean of April 1796 was, in less than six weeks, three and an half per cent. discount; by the end of July, at seven and three quarters per cent. discount; and at the end of September, 13 per cent. discount; the other funds fell in proportion; it was nevertheles always possible to sell funded property, scrip, c. at a greater or less discounts but the best mercantile securities, bilis of exchange of undoubted credit and solidity, and even the acceptances of government, and the East-India company, when at larg dates, became in a great degree unavailable, that is to say, they could not be discounted AT LEGAL INTEREST. That these general distresses bore with severe pressure on the house of Boyd, Benfield, and company, never meant to deny. It was the more fat by them at that time, as their transactions were then of considerable magnitude, having large payments and rumitances to make on account of the emperor, in addition to all the other concerns of their establishment. In answer to some of the questions, I have stated, that I was in the constant habit of communicating with Mr. Boyd concerning the affairs of the house, but that I could not be certain whether upon all occasions, his communications to me were unreserved. In saying so, I was very from meaning to insinuate any thing to the disadvantage of Mr. Boyd, for whose charse ter and abilities I always did, and still do, entertain the highest opinion; I only meant to say, that our situations were very diflerent in many respects, mine was that of acting laborious partner in the executive business of the house, and particularly in the correspondence department; it was my duly to follow his instructions, and to inform him of every thing that occurred; he, contrary, was frequently placed in situations which might have rendered a full and free communication with me on every point very improper. I recollect particularly, that early in the month of June, 1796, the Baron de Muller arrived from Vienna on a special mission from the direction of his Imperial en-the far Majesty's finances, and that Mr. Boyd was confidentially employed by him and Count Straremberg in negotiating some plan of further pecuniary supplies to the Emperor with his Majesty's cabinet ministers. In consequerice of those negotiations, the house of Boyd, Benfield, and Company, were instructed to facilitate the means of further supplies to the Emperor, and sent a person to Hamburgh about the latter end of July, 1796, for that express purpose, with unlimited credit apon the house. Mr. Boyd only communicated to nie, on this and other similar occasions, as much as it was necessary I should know, for the purpose of carrying the resolutions into exccution.—Q. Do yon any entry of payment on instalments on the loan, corresponding to the entry of the receipt above stated of 40,0001. ? ́A. I do not find any entry exactly correspondent to that particular sum; but many entries of large sums, on account of the direction of the finances at Vienna, particularly one sum on the 31st of October, 1796, of 196,340.13.1. find -Q. In the form of entries of bills, and other securities turned into money, on account of the house. of Boyd and Company, is any notice taken on the face of the cashbook, of the names of the parties by whom such bills or securities had been discounted? A. Not generally.- Q. In the case of bills issued to Mr. Boyd personally to be so converted, would such entry occur? A. Mr. Boyd's account would be made debtor for any securities delivered to him by the house, and would be made creditor for the sums of money received from him on account of such securities; but the name of the person or persons from whom he had received the money would not be mentioned.—Q. Would Mr. Boyd, on receipt of the advances of 40,0001. from Mr. Long, upon a deposit of bills, make any entry of Mr. Long's name in the cash-book of the house? 4. Most probably not, such entry being unnecessary for the information of the house.-Q. Can you state generally what proportion of the loan of seven millions and an half, contracted for in April, 1796, was held by the house of Boyd and Company, either on their own account, or that of others for whom they acted as agents? A. I cannot from memory state, but I find in the ledger, that a first payment was made to the Bank by the house of Boyd, Benfield, and Company, on the 20th of April, 1796, of 239,9001. upon the sum of 2,390,0001. of that loun.Does the sum in question include the payments on account of parties for whom the house acted as agents, as well as on behalf of the house itself? A. It does.-Q. Can -Q. you state generally, what proportion of the loan of 18,000,000 1. contracted for in December, 1795, was retained by the house of Boyd and Compmy, on their own behalf, or others for whom they acted as agents. I cannot; the first payment or that loan took place, I believe, in December, 1795; the ledger now before me cominences in January, 1796; but it appears that a second payment was made upon that loan on the 22 of January, amounting to 12,559. 18. 0.-Q. Did the proportion of the loans of December, 1795, and April, 1796, retained by the house of Boyd and Company, forma a material proportion of the general transactions of the house at the period in question? 4. It formed a large proportion, but there were at that time affairs of inuch more considerable magnitude than merely their amount in the share in the loan; it appears that in the year 1796, the house paid, or remitted to the direction of his Imperial and Royal Majesty's finances at Vienna, a sum amounting to 14,609,506. 9. Q. What was the highest discount on the loan of seven millions and an half, at any period in the year 1796? A. I cannot state from memory any higher discount than that of thirteen per cent, actually incurred by the house, by a transaction stated in their books, but it may have been at a higher discount. Q. Do you recollect how many instalments of the loan of December, 1795, were due in September, 1796? 4. I have no means of knowing it. 17th May.[Delivers in a copy of the entry of 9th and 10th September, 1796, from the books of the house of Boyd and Benfield, which was read.]Q. Was there any instalment payable on the loan of seven millions and an half in the month of September, 1796, and on what day? 4. I believe that an instalment of 15 per cent. became due on the loan of seven millions and an half, either on the 9th or the 11th day of September, and that a further instalment of 15 per cent. on the preceding loan. of 18,000,0001. became due on the 23d day of the same month.-Q. Do you know which instalment on the loan of seven millions and an half it was that became due on the 9th or 11th of September? A. I do not recollect which it was, my information upon the subject being derived merely from a pamphlet which I saw yesterday evening.--Q. Do not you know, that on the loan of se ven millions and an half, with regard to some of the instalments, the Bank had engaged to make the payments? 4. I do not recollect whether the Bank had upon that particular occasion or not. I wish to add |