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do not.—Q. Do you know of any applicatim made to government for assistance, in order to enable the house of Boyd and Beofield to complete any instalment upon that loan 3 - A.. I do not.— Q. Were you in the liabit of communicating with Mr. Boyd relative to the engagesments of the bouse?. A. Certainly, relative to all the "Jairs of the horse in general ; but I cannot know whether Mr. Boyd comununicated to me every thing that passed between hion and other persons. Q. Do you know of any sale of scrip, or any endeavour to sell scrip, in the months of August, September, and October, 1795, for the purpose of furnishing money to complete any instalment that might sail due upon the loan of December, 1795, within that period 24. I can:hot speak with certainty as to the particular period from memory, but the house being in the habit of holding considerable sumas of scrip, it is extremely probable that they may have sold a part of that scrip for the purpose of completing the payments on the remainder. Q. Do you recollect any sale of navy bills, or bills accepted by the East India Company from their presidencies abroad, or any attempt to make such sale, in the months of August, September, and October, 1796, for the purpose of completing any instalment upon the loan of December, 1795, which might become due within that period A. I do not recollect any such sales for that purpose, but it is impossible for me to state from memory the various and large transactions of that house; they will all be seen, I have no doubt, in the books and papers of the house. Q. In whose hands are those books and papers? A. They are in the cus
tody of the person or persons appointed by
the Crown, under a writ of Extent against the House: I believe they are at present in the strong room of the late house of Strange and Company, Bankers in New Bond-street, who were appointed rectivers by the Crown, *ith the consent and concurrence, I believe, of the assignees. Q. Do you recollect, in point of fact, any navy-bills, or any bills ac(epted by the East India Company, having 'een sold by the house of Boyd and Benfield *out the period alloded to, in Autumn 1790 A. I have no particular recollection. –Q. Do you recollect any instance, during the months of August, September, and October, 1790, of any navy bills, or bilis ac
‘epted by the East India £ompany, having the direction of Mr. Boyd. ; Walter Boyd the younger in the partiership
been either discounted, or attempted to be discounted, without success, by the house of
1940 money market. $o months, and from your recollection of the extensive conGerns of the house of Boyd and Benfield, do you think that had any such attempt been made to discount navy bills, or bills acceptcd by the East India Company, in the hands of the house of Boyd aud Benfield, that, such discount could have been obtained A.. I I pre-unie that such discount could have been ottained by the house of Boyd and Beijield at that period, with as much facility as ly any other house of losiness in the City of London; but on revollection, I believe that it was early in the year 1790 that the Bank. of England crine to a resolution considerably to na row, their discounts, notwithstanding any ideas toy might have entertained of the solidity of the paper offered, them.—Q. Were there, in the firm of the house of Boyd and Benfield, any other partners at that time besides Mr. Boyd, Mr. Benfield, and yourself? A. No others.-Q. Did you never hear that Mr. M'Dowall was a partner in the house A. Undoubtedly not; this is the first time I have heard such an idea mentioned.—Q. Did you ever see the bond, which was signed by the different partners in the house of Boyd and Benfield, giving security to government for the comipletion of the contract entered into by Mr. Boyd, for the remittance of 50,000l. to the East Indies on account of government, to which bond Mr. M'l)owall's uaine, and the names of two other gentlemen, appear aunexed to that bond, as partners in the house of Boyd and Benfield?. A. I do not recolject having signed myself any such bond jointly with Mr. M'Dowall.—Q. Who kept the cash-book of Boyd and Benfield, or the account of cash, receipts, and payments? A. Air. Henry I ibotton, a clerk in the house —Q. Under whose direction was the cas', account kept? A. Mr. Boyd's ; Mir. Libotton duily balanced the cash, and made his reports to Mr. Boyd.—Q. Could noney be advanced to the house, or raised from sources with which you were not acquaintcd A. It might possibly, and having na
particular charge of the cash-book, I did no. ! frequently attend to that department of ths
house. Q. Was the making provision for the payment of the instalments on any particular loan to go, enment more particularly under Mr. Boyd's directiou, or that of you ?
A.. I have already stated, that the cash affairs of the house were more particularly under Q, Was Mr.
Boyd and Benfield A. I have no recollec- of Boyd and Besield? A. He was not; I
on whatever of any such circumstance.
Q. From your recollection & the state of the proposed to i.im to become a partner, but
that he had declined it. He was, o: an acting partner in Mr. Boyd's house at * Paris, #. .. revolution.—Q. Have you any knowledge of any agreement made by Mr. Benfield, for any purchase of any estate in or about Shaftesbury, in July, 1796 A. I have no knowledge whatever of Mr. Benfield's private or separate transactions; during the whole course of our partnership, I seldom had any communication with Mr. Benfield upon any subject of business whatever.-Q. Do you happen to know who was Mr. Benfield's solicitor at that time? A. Mr. Benfield has employed at various times so many different solicitors, that I do not know with certainty who was his solicitor for Shaftesbury; but I believe Mr. Lloyd, in Bedford-row. know whether Mr. Boyd was chosen to serve
-jn Fono the general election in the
: what place A. For Shaftesbury.— Q.
You have stated, that you had not the parti
cular care of the cash in the house of Boyd,
nor of course of the cash-book; did you bowever, at stated times, or frequently, re, view the cash-book, and take notice of the
state of the cash? A. I have frequently
looked into the cash-book, and taken uotice of the state of the cash, but not at any stated periods—Q. Were all cash transactions of every description, regarding the firm, entered in that book? A. I believe they were.— • Q. Were all loans to and from the house entered there A. I believe they were:Q. Should you have deemed it a deviation from the course of business, if any loan had been made for the benefit of the house, and not regularly entered there 3 24. I should certainly have deemed it a deviatiou from the regular and established practice of all merchants—Q. Do you recollect, during the months of August, September, or October, 1796, any entry of a loan for 40,000 l. fro.o.) government from Lord Melville, then Mr. Dui, as, from Mr. Long, or anonymous? ...A.. I do not recollect any such entry, or any such loan, being received at the house; but I have no doubt that if a sum of 40,000 l. was received by the house, it must appear in the books of the house.—Q. Did Mr. Boyd communicate with you fully and freely on the concerns of the house, stating, at all times, such difficulties as may reaso...bly be supposed must occur at times in the management of all extensive concerns 2 A. Mr. Boyd was daily in the habit of communicaing with me, or rather, I was in the habit of communicating with him concerning the affairs of the house; but whether Mr. Boyd tommunicated, fully and freely cycry thing
Q. Do you,
he knew, it was impossible for me to wQ. Did he tell you at anytime, to the besto:
your recollection, during the months of A.
st, September, or October, 1796, that utss assistance could be obtained from home
stances, not be, convenient to do so, on c.
count of the great loss that would be sustair ed.—Q. Do you recollect, a situation of the house in which their public securitis would not fetch any price; and, on 4: count of such circumstance, a fuilure was to be apprehended during the months mention: ed? A. I do not recollect any period of any time whatever, when public securitia could not be sold at a greater or less discout, –Q. Have you any recollection cf it sale, or offer to sell, of any publicsecurities of scrip by that house, during the same period A, I have no doubt that about that period. sales of public securities must have leen no by the house; but with respect to the Partcular sums, or securities sold, I can only refer to the books of the house, it being inr possible for me to state such transocials from memory.—Q. Who had the custo of the securities, bills, and other market to papers, belonging to the house? A. They were kept in a drawer, of which Mr. Bod had a key, and I also had one—Q, Coo any quantity of such paper have been with. drawn from such drawer, for asy kngth of time, without your knowledge or obser" tion ? A. These securities were daily go out, either by Mr. Boyd or by myself, * either of us happened to be present who they were wanted, for the purposes either"
sale, discount, or to receive the paymenton
such as had become due—Q, Westho”. not an account kept of the ceilients of to drawer 1. There was no particular * count kept of the contents of the drawo”. other than that all remittances and securit” were usually entered in the bill books. * when delivered to the cashie; so the Po 3913] poses before stated, it was his duty to mark them off in those books; but bills were fre-quently taken out for the purpose of being -discorinted when discount, could not be re‘gularly obtained, or when only temporary 3oans could be had on the security of the -bills, in which case it is possible no such entry may have been made; the bills then ought to have been returned to the drawer.—Q. Do you recollect the absence of any East India Company bills, or navy bills, from the drawer, to the arnotint of 40,000l., or thereabouts, without your knowing for what purpose they had been used? A. I do not recollect any such circumstance, but I have no doubt that if any such transactions took place, they would appear in the books of the house.— you he had pledged securities to such an amount, for assistance to make good an instalment upon loan A. I do not recollect that he did. Q. Have you any reason to believe such pledge was ever made by the house for such purpose? A. I have not.— Q. In the event of any bills being taken from the drawer, and pledged to any party who lent money upon them, such party having received the payment of these bills when due, and discharged the debt due to himself from their produce, how would the entry respecting such transaction have been made
in the books of Boyd and company A.
I presume that the person would have been ... thade debtor to cas' to the account to which the bills or securities referred or belonged. —A. Would not such bills have been marked of in the bill-book as liquidated or paid 2 A. They wool, if the cashier did his duty, although I had one key of the drawer which contained those boils. Mr. Boyd had complete and entire confidence in Mr. Libotton, and I delivered any securitics to him that the drawer contain'd without hesitation, and without taking any note whatever of the bills so given out. The confidence of Mr. Benfield in Mr. Libotton was, if possible, still more entire; he proposed about the latter end of the year 1796, or the beginning of the year 1797, that Mr. Libotton shouli oome a partner in the house, to which I objected, and of course it did not take place. -Q. Were bills and securities to the *mount of 41,000l. so marked off on or about the month of October 1796; or was on entry made of the nature you have de*ood in a former answer A: I have airsoly stated, that I have no particular re“ollection of the bills which appear to be *holed to in that question; but I have no out, that if such billswore in possession *the house, up had been either sold or
Q. Did Mr. Boyd cver inform
*** - * * mind. . . . this discounted by the o: to have beef morked off isohoff:book. *—Q. Do you think that bills accepted by the East-India company; some of so "twelve and fifteen months to risi, and i. bills, could have been discounted in the autumn of 1796 - A. I do not believe they could have been discounted of such long dates ; but if it were legal to sell such bi I have no doubt but it might have been practicable to sell them.—Q. Did Mr. Boyd ever mention to you, that in the autumn of 1796, he had conversed with lord Melville, or the chancellor of the erchequer, respecting any assistance to be furnished to him by government, in lieu of securiti which he was to furnish for that purpose? A. I do not recollect that he jor Had you yourself any conversation of the same nature with either of the above-named persons A. I had not the honour of being at all known either to Mr. Pitt or lord Melville; I do not recollect ever having been in Mr. Pitt's presence on any occasion whatever, or ever been in lord Melville's presence since the house of Boyd, Benfield, and company, were in existence.—Q. You have stated, that you did not sign the contract of partnership with Mr. Boyd and Benfield; ho you not consider, that the not having so done, would exempt you from a of the legal consequences of their failure? A. I believe it would have exempted me, had the establishment been in any foreign cointly, for instance, in Holländ or in France, where such limited partnerships are not uncommon; but I have been advised or informed, that according to the laws of this country, any person who is held out to the public as a partner, or who secrete! participates in the profit, is liable to the creditors of the house, although, as between ourselves, I considered I was not liable t any loss ; I thought so at the time, but considered the fortune of Mr. Benfield and of Mr. Boyd (as represented to me by Mr. Boyd) to be such is would place me above all risk-Q. Did you consider yourself as partner at all, not having signed the contract of partnership A. I considered myself liable as a partner to the public, but not ound by any particular stipulation which might have been entered in by Mr. Boyd and Mr. Ben Geld, in their coi, tract together. —Q. What do you snean by stating, that you acted chiefly under the direction of Boyd A. I méau, that my concern in the house being comparatively very small, it would not have been becoming in me to assume much cottscquence from it.
cases respecting the concerns of the house 2 A. Generally speaking I certainly did not, lowever, without expressing my own opinion. Q. Did you believe now that Mr. Boyd communicated to you all the money -transactions of the honse ..., A. I have no reason to think that he with-held from me any knowledge of the money transactions in general.—Q. Then you cannot take upon yoursclf to say, that he did communicate to you all the money transactions of the house 2 A. I cannot positively say so, and certainly not in all the detail.—Q. You have stated, that Mr. Boyd had entire confidence in Mr. Libotton, the cashier; had you the same degree of confidence in Mr. Libotton 2 A, I had no reason to doubt his honesty, nor have I now, although my opinion in other respects was not altogether so partial as that of Mr. Boyd and Mr. Benfield appeared to
15th May.—Q. Is that book in your hand the cash-book of August 1798, of Boyd , and Benfield A. Yes.—Can you point out in the books before you, the entry of the sum advanced to Mr. Boyd of 40,000l. in the year 1796, by lord Melville, or anonymous, which you may conclude to have been such advance upon the security of East-India company bills and other public securities? A. It appears by an entry in the cash book of 9th September 1796, that bills to the amount of
11,8281. 11s. 0d. on the East-India com
pany; to the amount of 5,0411. 1s. 8d. on the Treasury; a further sum of 11,000l. on the Treasury ; and 12,834]. Ss. 2d. on the Victualling Office, making together the sum of 40,704. 1s. 7d. were delivered to Mr. Boyd to discount, or raise money upon them; that Mr. Boyd accordingly paid to the house on account thereof 30,000l. on the 9th day of September aforesaid, and a further sun of 10,000l. on the following day. I wish to state in explanation of my evidence on a former day, that in the first part of my examination, my mind bore upon an earlier poriod than I now perceive the question apJolies to. I was asked concerning the loan contracted for in December 1795: my answer referred to the preceding loan for the service
of the year 1795, in which the imperial loan
of 4,600,000l. was included ; the loan con
from meaning to insinuate any th”
difficulty was experienced in Hipnoso
actions during the year 1795, but “” fact generally known, that great to veniences were sustained from what iso
termed a scarcity of money early on of spring of 1796; and from the time do Bank of England came to the reso of narrowing their discounts, that to venience continued to increase until to latter end of February 1797, when an * of council was made for suspending tile". of cash by the bank; in consequebo
this general depreciation of credit, the loan of April 1790'was, in less than six wo three and an half per cent. discount: " the end of July, at seven and three quarris per cent, discount; and at the endo. tember, 13 per cent. discount; the “ funds fell in proportion ; it was never"." always possible to sell funded to scrip, &c. at a greater or less dio but the best mercantile securities, blo
exchange of undoubted credit and * and even the acceptances of governmo, and the East-India company, when * long dates, became in a great degree unaval + that is to say, they could not le dio At legal. 1stEREst. That these *
distresses bore with severe press* o house of Boyd, Benfield, and co. never meant to deny. It was theo. by them at that time, as to o actions were then of considerao o: nitude, having large payments. * . ances to make on account of the of: in addition to all the other concer” of it establishment.—In answer to so.” into questions, I have stated, that I o Mr. constant habit of communicating." but Boyd concerning the affairs of the mal that I could not be certain whetlao” o: occasions, his communications to "... unreserved. In saying so, I xi. -a rhilo disadvantage of Mr. Boyd, for who". ū, ter and abilities I always did, and ! mo entertain the highest opinion; I of to say, that our situations were vo 3. of M ent in many respects, mine was. P.easio acting laborious partner in the o:
business of the house, and particulos :y do correspondence department; it war.”so
to follow his instructions, and to into eno
which might have rendered a ful'.
improper. I recollect particularlyin the month of June, 1796, the Basud
til Müller arrived from Vienna on 4 :
mission from the direction of hio *
Majesty's finances, and that Mr. Boyd was confidentially employed by him and Count Straremberg in hegotiating some plan of further pecuniary supplies to the Emperor with his Majesty's cabinet ministers. His consequence of those negotiations, the house of Boyd, Benfield, and Company, were instructed to facilitate the means of further supplies to the Emperor, and seat a person to Hamburgh about the latter end of July, 1706, for that express purpose, with unlimited credit upon the house. Mr. Boyd only communicated to me, on this and other similar occa*ions, as much as it was necessary I should know, for the purpose of carrying the resojuitions into execution. Q. Jo you find any entry of payment on instalments on the loan, corresponding to the entry of the receipt above stated of 40,000 l. 2 A. I do not find any entry eracts correspondent to that particular sum ; but many entries of large sums, on account of the direction of the irtances at Vienna, particularly one sum on the 31st of October, 1796, of t 186,340. 13. 1. —Q. In the form of elitries of bills, and other securities turned into money, on account of the honse of Boyd and Company, is any notice taken on the face of the cashbook, of the names of the parties by whom such bills or securities had been discounted 2 A. Not generally.—Q. In the case of bills issued to Mr. Boyd personally to be so converted, would such entry occur : A. Mr. Boyd's account would be made debtor for any securities delivered to him by the house, and would be made creditor for the sums of money received from him on account of such securities; but the name of the person or persons from whom he had received the money would not be mentioned. Would Mr. Boyd, on receipt of the advances of 40,000l. from Mr. Long, upon a deposit of bills, make any entry of Mr. Long's name if the cash-book of the boose? A. Most probably not, such entry being unnecessary for the information of the house. Q. Can you state generally what proportion of the Joan of seven millions &nd an half, contracted for in April, 1796, was held by the house of Boyd and Company, either on their own account, or that of others for whom they acted as agents: A. I cannot from memory state, but i find in the lodger, that a first payinent was made to the Rank by the house of Boyd, Benfield, and Company, on the 26th of April, 1796, of 238,9001, upon the sum of 2,389,000l. of that loan-Q. Does the sum in question include the payments on accoot of parties for whom the house acted as agents, as well as on behalf of tle house itself A. It does—Q. Can
[91s you state generally, what proportion of the loan o'of 18,000,000 l. contracted for in December, 1705, was retained by the house of Boyd and Company, on their own behalf, or others for whom they acted as agents A. i cannot; the first payment onthat loan took place, I believe, in December, 1795; the ledger now before me commences
in January, 1796; but it appears that a se
cond payment was made upon that loan on the 22d of January, amounting to of 12,550. 18. o. Q. Did the proportion of the loans of December, 1795, and April, 1796, retained by the house of Boyd and Company, torto a material proportion of the general transactions of the house at the pe. riod in question? " A. It formed a large proportion, but there were at that time affairs of much more considerable magnitude than . merely their amount in the share in the !on; it appears that in the year 1796, the house paid, or remitted to the direction of his Imperial and Royal Majesty's finances at Vienna, a sum amounting to it 4,609,506.9. —Q. What was the highest discount on the loan of seven millions and an half, at an period in the year 17962 A. I cannot state from memory any higher discount than that of thirteen per cent, actually incurred by the house, by a transaction stated in their books, but it may have been at a higher discount. —Q. Do you recollect how many instalments of the join of December, 1705, were due in September, 17962 A. I have no means of knowing it. . . 17th May.—[Delivers in a copy of the entry of goh and 1Cth September, 1796, from the books of the house of Boyd and Benfield', which was read.] Q. Was there any instalment payable on the loan of seven milions and an half in the month of September, 1796, and on what day A. I believe that an instalment cf 15 per cent. become die on the loan of seven millions at:d an half, either on the 9th or the 11th day of September, and that a further instalment of 15 per cent, on the preceding loan of 18,000,000 b. became due on the 23d day of the same month.--—Q. Do you know which instalment on the loan of seven miilions and an half it was that because due on the oth or 11th of Septemb:r A. I do not
recollect which it was, my information upon
the subject, being derived merely from a pamphlet which I saw yesterday evening.— Q. Do not you know, that on the loan of seven millions and an half, with regard to some of the instalments, the Bank had enAf. I do not recollect whether the Bank had upon thirt porticular eccasion or not... I wish to ado',