mation as to the purpose to which such Q. Had you any other conversation with - money was applied? 4. I have hot:--Q. the Chancellor of the Exchequer than the Did you MAKE ANY INQUIRY of Lord Melone you have now stated? 4. None that I ville on the subjectRevA. I did not.—Q. | recollect.-Q. Upon a point of this nature, When did the conversation take place?. Some time after the Tenth Report was published. of forgiv

IL

affecting the interest of the Bank as well as those of the public, did it not occur to you 'to inquire whether any, or what steps had been taken in consequence of your former suggestion. I looked upon it that hav

Eramination of THOMAS RAIKES, (late Governor of the Bank of England) on the 8thing made the matter known to the Chancellor of Maypyida

QAre you aware of the provisions of the act of the 25th Geo. III. cap. 31, for regulating the office of Treasurer of the Navy in so far as they relate to the issues of public money to the Bank for naval services? A. I never saw the act, or ever heard any particulars of it.Q. Do you know in point of fact, that public money for naval services is issued by the Exchequer to the Bank, to be drawn from thence by the Treasurer of the Navy or his agent, when applied to such services? A. Yes, I know that is the custom of the business, and that it came to the cashier's office in the Bank.

of the Exchequer, it was in the hands of the person most competent to set any thing right that might be wrong in the business; I do not recollect I heard any thing more upon the subject in the course of my office.-Q. Did you, on your return to the Bank, make any minute of the substance of what had passed with the Chaucellor of the Exchequer on this subject? A. I mentioned the matter to the Committee of Treasury and seve-7 ral of the Directors, but I made no particular minute of it; I had always made minutes when I was in the situation of Deputy Governor, but another gentleman was now in that situation, and the practice was then dis-Q. How is it drawn from thence? A. continued, only a clerk was appointed to take I cannot speak from my own knowledge, the minutes of any actual business that passed' cashier manages all that business.Q. Do between the Governors and the Chancellor you know if any sums of money paid from of the Exchequer; but matters of conversathe Exchequer into the Bank for naval ser- tion were not included.- Q. Is it not vices have been drawn from the Bank, and usual to cause a minute to be taken of any placed in the hands of private bankers? 4. representation made by the Governor or DeFrom my own knowledge I cannot say I do puty Governor of the Bank, which they conknow. Q. Has such information been sider as official? A. This communication given to you at any time? A. Yes, I be- was not considered as official.—Q. Of Heve in the year 1797 Q. By whom? whom did the Committee of Treasury con A. Mr. Giles, the then late Governor of the sist at that time? 4. Mr. Thomas Raikes, Bank, told me that Mr. Dandas, then Trea- | Governor, Mr. Samuel Thornton, Sir Risurer of the Navy, kept his cash, which by chard Neave, Mr. Darell, Mr. Bosanquet,' act of parliament he was directed to keep at Mr. Giles, and Mr. Mathew.Q. Do you the Bank, at the private banking-house of recollect the terins in which you made this Messrs. Contts and Company. I was going communication to Mr. Pitt? A. Only as I that day to the Chancellor of Exchequer on before stated.-Q. What was the date of business from the Bank, and I thought it of the communication you made to Mr. Pitt? sufficient consequence to mention the matter A. I do not know, but it was some time after to him, but I called in Mr. Newland, the the 5th of April, 1797.Q. Was any incashier, and asked him as to the circumstance, formation officially given to the Chancellor which he confirmed; and added, that navy of the Exchequer, on the part of the Bank, bills were now paid by drafts upon Messrs. after your communications made to the Com Courts and Company, instead of upon the mittee of Treasury? A. I do not recollect Bank, as they had formerly been when 1 that any were. -Q. Did you consider the went up to Mr. Pitt, after the immediate information given to the Committee of Trea object of my business from the Bank was sury, as a matter of business brought before over, I did, in conversation, mention the cir- them on which it became them to act, or cumstance to himQDid any thing only as a report of a conversation that had further pass PA. Nothing particular; I taken place? A. Merely in the latter light; think Mr. Pitt thanked me for my informa I did not conceive the Bank had any right tion, and made no further observation to apply further on the subject to the ChanQ Did Mr. Giles tell you any thing of the cellor of the ExchequerQ. Can you extent of these transactions, or when they mention in what termis you made the com1 commenced ? ( At-Not that I recollect.munication to Mr Pitt? Itold him that

for I always avoided going alone to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when I was Governor of the Bank, lest by failure of me mory I might ever omit any part of the br siness I had to doQ. Who was Deputy Governor at that time. Mr. Samuel Thornton.Q. When Mr. Giles informed you of the circumstance of the Treasurer of the Navy keeping his cash at a private banker's, did he throw out any hints that such money was applied for the profit of any person? A. No.-Q. Did any such idea suggest itself to you, or did you at the time ever hear it, or know any thing of the matter? 4. I cannot say but I had some suspicion of it, but nobody ever told me, not did any thing of the kind ever come to my knowledge. -Q. Do you recollect stating any suspicion of that sort to Mr. Pitt, of throwing out any hint tending that way? 4. As I knew nothing of that kind, I had no right to throw out suspicions.-Q. When did you first entertain such suspicions? A. When Mr. Giles first mentioned it to me.

I had heard at the Bank that morning, that The Treasurer of the Navy now kept his cash at Messrs, Coutts and Company's instead of the Bank, where I understood it should be lodged by act of parliament; and that I had also heard that navy bills were now paid by drafts upon Messrs. Coutts and Company, instead of drafts upon the Bank.-Q. Are you certain that those are the terms in which you made the communication? A. I am not sure of the terms, it was eight years ago; but I am sure of the purport.- -Q. Had you any authority from the Bank to mention the conversation alluded to, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer ? A. None, I did it with a view to the PUBLIC good.Q. You mentioned it as an individual only? 4. I cannot say quite as an individual; I was Governor of the Bank at the time I learned it at the Bank, and mentioned it to Mr Pitt, being Governor of the Bank; I should not have known it had I not been in that situation, nor had any opportunity of making the communication.- Q. Did you mention the circumstance to Mr. Pitt, as Governor of the Bank? A. I had no commission from the Bank to mention it to Mr.. Pitt, but I did it in conversation after the business was over. Q. By the word "business," do you mean such communication to the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the business of the Bank, which, as Governor of the Bank, you was authorized to make to him? A. I do.-Q. All the bu siness which you were to communicate to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as Governor of the Bank, was concluded previous to any such communication as that to which yon have alluded? A. It was.- Q: Might not the circumstance you mentioned to Mr.ing to their department.-Q. By whom Pitt have come equally to the knowledge of any holder of a navy bill, or to any person whom Mr. Giles informed as he did you? 4. Any holder of a navy bill, who received for payment a draft upon Coutts, must dertainly know who paid them, but perhaps he might be ignorant from whence the funds came; but any person to whom Mr. Giles. communicated the information he did to me, was equally master of it as. I was. Q.

Examination of THOMAS WILSON (late a
Clerk under Lord Melville, and now under
Mr. Canning), taken on the 11th of
May; as far as relates to the Loun to
Boyd and Co.

Q. What means had each Board of judging of the balance in the Treasurer's hands at the Bank, at their disposal, at any particular moment? A. By the accounts rendered every fortnight, they are fully in formed of the amount of the receipts and payments, from which they can judge of he kalance in the Treasurer's hands belong

is such fortnightly statement laid before them? The accounts are made out in the navy and victualling branches, and transmitted to the Boards, with the sig nature of the paymaster. Q. Has the Treasurer of the Navy any control in the making out of such account? A. Nena whatever. -Q. Cannot the respective boards at once ascertain the precise balance subject to their further assignment, by etm paring their own assignments already made with the issues notified to have been made by the Exchequer for the service of their particular department, a copy of which no tification you stated to be regularly trans

When you made this,communication to Mr. Pitt, did you not conceive you was discharging your duty, as Governor of the Bank, although not acting officially? 4. I had no commission from the Bank, but I thought it a duty to the public Mr. Pitt should know it.mitted to them at the time of such issue? Q.Was the Deputy Governor of the "Bank present at this conversation with Mr. Pitt, or any other person? I make no doubt the Deputy Conor was, though I do not absolutely recollect the circumstance,

A. I unquestionably believe they can
Q. May not victualling bills, accepted
by agents of the victualling office from
abroad, be presented for payment when
there are no effects in the hands, soft the

Treasurer of the Navy: for paying the same, in consequence of the victualling board not having estimated the payment of the same in any previous memorial to the treasury, of such board not having had notice that such bills were likely to be presented? 4. It is not likely that any victualling bill could be presented to the Treasurer of the Navy for payment, unless duly assigned for that purpose by the board.- Q. Might it not have been presented to the board, and their assignment refused, until a credit upon their memorial to the treasury was established at the bank for paying the same? A. I certainly believe that such circumstances, may have occurred in the victualling office. Q. Do you recollect any instance of payment delayed, or refused, upon any victualling bill actually assigned by the commissioners? A. I do not recollect of such a circumstance ever having happened.Q. Can you take upon you to say that no delay or embarrassment, or inconvenience of any kind, did arise in any department of the Navy Pay Office in consequence of the irregular advance of 40,000l. in the year 1796? A. I do not recollect that any complaint or inconvenience did arise in consequence, thereof.--(Question repeated.) A. I certainly do not recollect of any inconvenience having arisen from it.(Question again repeated.) A.. I really believe no inconvenience could arise from it.

·Examination of GEORGE BARCLAY (a Mer

chant) taken 10th of May.

period alluded to? 4. I cannot speak from my own knowledge; I have not the least doubt of the fact.- Q. Did you call between the 18th of February and the 1st of March? A.. I sent one of my clerks two or three times, and received the same an swer, till the 1st March.

Examination of JOHN MARSH (a Commis sioner of the Victualling Board) taken 17th May.

Q. Do you recollect, in February 1797, a victualling bill for 1,000l., drawn from Mr. George Desborough, from Martinique and payable to T. Marcarty and Co. to be presented by Mr. Barclay at the victualling office for payment? A. I have no other recollection of the circumstance than what has recently come to my knowledge.-Q. State the circumstances. A. A bill of exchange for 1,000). drawn by Mr. George Desborough, was ordered on the 6th of February 1797 to be accepted from the time it was left, and became due on the 15th of February; on the 9th February, the victualling board wrote for 70,000l., for the payment of bills of exchange, in which sum the bill in question was included; on the 25th of February 47,000l. was received in part of the sum applied for, and on the same day the above bill with many others, were assigned for payment, and immediately ready for delivery; it was delivered on the first of March following to Mr. Barclay, who might have had it, as I am informed, in time for payment, on the 25th of February, had he applied for it. I received this information from the accomptant; I knew nothing of the transaction myself.-Q. Did the accomptant officially report these circumstances for your information as a commissioner of the board? 4. As a commissioner of the board, at my desire; I was not then a member of the board at the time the transaction took place.-Q. Have you ever known payment delayed, or refused, on any victualling bill actually assigned by the commissioners of the victualling board on the Treasurer of the Navy? A. No; the bills are never, to the best of my

Q. Do you know of any instance, between August 1796 and January 1798, of any victualling bill which had been regularly accepted, and presented for payment, not having been paid when so presented for want of effects? A. The case happened to me in an instance of my own. Q. State the case? ..it was, in a bill of 1,000l, drawn from Martinique by Mr. Desborough upon the victualling office, regularly accepted, and due the 18th February 1797, and paid, without, interest on the 1st of March, eleven days after it was due- Q. When it became due, was it presented for payment, and if presented, what answer 24. I pre-recollection, assigned till we know there are sented it myself the day it became due at the victualling office, and I was told there were no effects, or to that purport, and that I must call again; I was told at the vietualling office by the people there, that there were a great many bills in a similar situa tion; cannot say who the individuals were that gave the answer. -Q. Do you know of any navy bill- dye, not having been paid when presented for payment within the

monies ready in the hands of the Treasurer
of the Navy to discharge them.-Q.
૨.
Have assignments ever been delayed, to
your knowledge, on account of the want
of money in the hands, of the Treasurer of
the Navy to cover such assignments?
The account which is preparing, in answer
to the precept of this committee directed to
the victualling board, will show what delay
has occasionally occurred.

A.

ch QExamination of GEORGE SWAFFIELD (Cashier in the Victualling Office) taken 10th May, QWhat are you? Cashier of the victualling in the Navy Pay Office Q Do you know any thing of any bill accepted by the commissioners of the victualling office, and presented for payment when due, not having been paid at the office when so presented, between August 1796 and January 1798 A. I do not recollect any such circumstance, if the bill was complete. Q. What is the meaning of the bill being complete? 4. That the bill might be accepted by the board, but not assigned by them for want of money.-Q. What is the meaning of "not assigned for want of "money". The money not having been issued from the Exchequer to the Treasurer of the Navy for the payment of it.On what head of account at the Bank would the assignment of a bill upon the victualling office be made? A. On the head of victuilingQ. Is that class or head of -payment distinct from the bill and payment office? A. It is so distinct, that I have never any cash at the Bank but under that' head of victualling.-Q. Did it frequently happen that bills accepted were not assigned for want of money? A. I have known many instances of it.Q. Did such instances occur frequently between the month of August 1796 and January 1798? A. Most probably they did; I cannot pretend to say, without my books of accounts.

John

-Q.

Swaffield, deputy to the paymaster. branch in the Navy Pay Office By whom are the assignments made Of these bills that I pay, the assignments are made by three or more commissioners of victualling, Q. Has the Treasurer of the Navy any thing to do with the making the assignment. No. Q. Does not the Treasurer of the Navy order the issue of the money when the assignments are made? 4. Whenever the commissioners of victualling assign bills for payment, they send a list of those bills by way of advice, and that list is generally sent to me, on which I apply for money to pay it. Is such list sent previous to the assignment being made? A. I cannot say positively, but my instructions are not to pay those bills without first having the list.Q. Is the Qlist submitted to any body before it comes to you? A. Very rarely. -Q. Is it ever, i or has it ever been? 4. Not that I can recollect; those lists are generally sent to me open-by one of their messengers, and frequently by one of their clerksDo you ever recollect notice having been sent to the victualling office not to make assignments of any list, or any bill or bills included in any list, or any victualling bill or bills of any description, till further order or communication? A. I certainly dever knew an instance of that kind, and I have been three or four and thirty years in my present situation; I have been sixty years

Q. By reference to these books of accounts, can your discover what number of bills due, and presented, were not paid within the periods alluded to, because they had not been assigned for want of money? A: No, I cannot myself, but I could learn it from the Victualling Board.Q. Do you apprehend it can be ascertained by reference to docu*ments in the victualling office? A. Cer<tainly. Q. Would the assignment of accepted bills have been delayed, if a balance under that head of issue appeared in the books of the commissioners of victualling to be at that time in the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy A. I believe not, that belongs to the victualling boardQ. Do! Q. Do you conceive the delay of assignments to have been occasioned by the delay of funds being issued from the Exchequer to the credit of the Treasurer of the Navy at the Bank, or by any circumstance in the mode of conducting the business in the Treasurer of the Navy's Office, after the funds had been issued to him? A. The delay is certainly for want of money being at the Bank in the treasurer's name for that or any purpose.

Q. Who is the head clerk of the pay

in all.

Q. How are the victualling office
informed of the balance of cash in the trea
surer's hands, applicable to their depart
ment, so as to enable them to judge whe
ther to assign, or not, bills that may be
due? A. As it is received by the Exche
quer, it is or ought to be immediately cer
tified to that board by the paymaster
Do you know whether such certificates have,
in point of fact, always been regularly made?
4. They have not been immediately made,
because the money has been issued from the
Exchequer in exchequer bills; which bills
must go to market before the treasurer is in
possession of the money Has the

Treasurer of the Navy any authority to is-
sue orders to the victualling board. I
beljeve not.- Q. Has the Treasurer of the
Navy any discretion as to what bills shall
be assigned, or not, on him? A. Certainty
not; the money is entirely in the disposition
of the commissioners of the victualling.
Q. Has he any other duties than to pay the
bills assigned on him, as far as the balance
standing in the Bank, under the head of
except accounting for the money every fort-
Victualling, enables him to do try
night.