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ney, issued for naval service, applied to pur collect having myself seen the securita poses not naval? A. I know of one such -Q. Did you conceive the transactions instance. -Q. Have the goodness to state be irregular and illegal ? A. I certac it. A. It was an advance made from considered it as irregular ; I do not knowi nuval money, in the course of the year 1790; occurred to me, at the time, that i sa I think late in the summer or in tlie autumn positively illegal; but I hare no difficulty 1796; I am not able to ascertain the pre- / saying, that I was so strongly impressed cise time; it was made to the house of with the belief of its importance and urgeat Messrs. Boyd and Benfieid, who were then necessity, with a view to essential public is: contractors for two loans fur goverilment; terests, that I should hare thought it as the advance was the sum of 40,0001. It duty to incur the risk of commiuing an irwas made - in consequence of a representa regular and illegal act, rather thing expese tion, that, from the difficulty which existed the public to the mischief which I though: at that time ini obtaining advances, even oli would otherwise infallibly have arisen. good security, they were under such pecil Q. Did you make any memorandum in tritniary embarrassments as would prevent their iny of the transaction, or any part of it? .. making good an instalment due to govern No, I did not. -Q. Did you take sur ment. Unquestionable securities were given steps towards obtaining an indemnity of su for the repayment of the advance ; and un an irregularity, committed with your knä. der these circumstances, knowing no other ledge and concurrence? 4. No, I did not way at the time by which serious mischief and I conceive that it was impossible for m to the public service could be prevented, to have done so, without disclosing circuaand understanding that the naval service was stances which must have been highly injarinot likely to sutier any inconvenience from ous to the mercantile house ii concert this adrance, I concurred in opinion with and might have in a great measure tendal the Treasurer of the Nary, that it was advise to counteract the objects of the public si able to make it. I must beg the committee to vice which I had in view.understand, that I can only state the general such delicacy as to the disclosure of the transubstance of the transaction to the best of my saction had ceased, did
you take any such recollection, not being able precisely to recall steps ? A. I have never hitherto takea any all particulars at this distance of time.-Q. such steps; the delicacy attending such dis To whom was the pecuniary embarrass closure could never, I conceive, be considerments of the house of Boyd and Benfield ed as having ceased, till after the house in made ? A. To myself and Lord Melville. question became bankrupt.-Q. When
Q. At the same time ? 4. Whe did that happen? d. I really do not recalther separately or jointly I cannot under lect, but it was a considerable time, I betake to say, but I ruther lelieve both ways. lieve three or four years after the transaction;
Q. With whom did the proposition for and I confess the necessity of applying for the relief of the house of Boyd and Benfield, indemnity did not then present itself to my by the means which were afterwards resorted
Q. Were any of the other public to, originate? A. I am confident the serrents acquainted with the transaction ? suggestion of the means must have origi 8. I l'clieve po others, with the exception nated with the Treasurer of the Navy.- of Nir. Long, then one of the secretaries of Q. Did the Treasurer of the Navy siate in the treasury, through whom the nickey what manner he meant to obtain the money? was so advanced. Q. Do you know 2D A. I do not recollect that he did ; but I 1n thing about the repayment of the mones; derstood generally, that it was inoney which or the periods at which it.was repaid? .. could, in his opinion, be spired for a time I only know it as I learned it from Nir. without inconvenience, provided there was | Long, and I cannot state precisely particular sufficient security for its repayment.- -Q. I periods; but I understood generally a birge Do you know in point of tact how it was proportion of it to be within a short time obtained.? A. I do not, froin my Oil'n -Q. Do you know if it has all been re knowledge.-Q. Did you enquire into the jaid' A. I have no doubt but it has—. nature of the securities that were taken, or Do you know of the existence of any o(sck their amount ? A. I was sutisfied at the mont any where, at the time or since, e! time that the securities offered were such as now, by which the public could have come might be depended upon, and I think I un at the knowledge of this transgetien? derstood them to consist either of navy bills it. I do not know of any memorandum of or of bills which had been acrepted by the document niade at tlie tinie, or siuce; buit! East India Company, which were 10 fall conceive, that if the manies baril not. deer due at successive periods.; but I do not re- punctually repaid, the securities deposite
must have led to ascertain to whom the ad you their difficulties for the first time? A. vatices were made.
-R. The money I do not.--- Q. Can you recollect whether being paid, aux the securities of course re it was previous to the loan of the spring turned, was there, or is there any other 1796
4. I believe not. -Q. Do you source of such information ?
A. None, recollect a notice given by the bank in Dethat I know of, but the evidence of the par cember 1795, of their intention to narrow ties concerned.-Q. Then, supposing the their discounts ? A. I recollect such a death of such parties, was there, or is there, notice being given, but I cannot now state at any such evidence at all? A. None, that I what precise period. -Q. Was that notice know nj; since the repayment of the sums. acted upon ? A. I understand it was.
Q. Do you know of any other advances Q. Do you recollect a general complaint, of money issued for ny services to pur that the acting upon that notice had tended poses not navál, at any time, or of
de to increase the embarrassment prevailing'in scription ? A. No, I do not know of any the commercial world at that time? A. I such advances.
recollect much complaint of that nature. 7th May.Q. Was any interest paid hy Q. Did Mr. Boyd make any particular Messrs. Boyd upon the loan of 10,0001.? and specific complaint to you of his own A. I do not know that there was. -Q. Wliy embarrassinents, in consequence of the conwas it not paid? A. No demand was made. duct of the bank? 4. I believe he com--Q. Do you recollect any other instance plained of its effects.--Q. Had you any of public money advanced to commercial communication with the governor and compersons in which interest was not demand pany of the bank on this subject of their ed? A. I do not recollect any similar in conduct? A. I think I had conversation on stance of such an advance.
the subject of their conduct in narrowing recollect any other instance where interest 'their discounts at different times.
-Q. has not been paid? A. No. -Q. For what Do
you recollect the date of the first ? A. I reason was the demand ot" interest omitted ?
Q. Can you give the committee A. I can assign no specific reason; it did any information as to the probable date of not occur to me to be necessary.
such communications ? Å. I really cannot, What was the amount of inoney borrow as I do not at present recollect when the ed in the year 1795 ?: A. I cannot tuke measure was adopted.-Q. Can you reupon- myself to say at this moment. collect the reasons assigned by the governor Q. Do you recollect how many loans were and company of the Bank of England for made in that year A. I cannot noul state their conduct in so narrowing their disit with any accuracy, but there was one counts ? . As well as I recollect, but I made in December 1795 ?---Q. Was Mr. cannot at this distance of time speak with Boyd contractor for all or any of the loans certainty, the reasons assigned were the demade in 1795? A. I am sure he was con crease of cash in their possession, and a de-. tractor for the loan made about December sire to check speculation, to which they 1795; I do not recollect any preceding thought those discounts were applied. Jean-Q. Was the loan of December Q. Did any particular, conversation take 1795 a close loan, or a loan by public bid-place on the subject of the house of Boyd ang? A. There was one of the loans with and Company in your communications with Mr. Boyd' a close loan, but cannot recollect the bark, or was that house mentioned in which
Q. Do you recollect that Mr. any conversations that passed at that period ? Bord laid claim to the loan in December. A. I rather think, that house has been men1795, in consequence of any previous trans tioned in some conversations, but I cannot tittions between you anul him, or of any aun now recollect with any precision.-Q. Do ciprstanding that had taken place letireen you recollect the drift of any
such conversayou? 1. I cannot take upon myself to state tions relating to that house? A. No, I do. these circumstances now with accuracy upon not.----Q. Did the house of Boyd complain, recollection, and I beg to refer to the exami or ever stite to yo'l that the bank were not nation's tliat were taken when the transaction so liberal in their discounts to thot house as Was - recent. Q. Was not a lo! of to others? A. I think they did.-.-Q. Dd 7,500,000l. or thereabouts, contracted for you enquire into the reason of the particular" Ga or about the month of April 1790? 4. I conduct of the balk towards that house! tudieve there was ---Q. Was Mr. Boyd 1. I cu not recollect that I did. ---Q: Los contractor for that loàn? A. He was.- you recü.'ect any genem information you Q. Was that-a'close 'or open loin ? A. I do may have breivelinum ály v uarter of this Olmow recollect, Q. Do you recollert reasons for at picitar contact? out wiwit time the house of Bord stated to
hlul Beispi tires infurminis
of the danger in which that house found itself? A. I cannot say';
that the centuries e pode for
ment? A. I think they made representa: the year. 1796, I believe..Q. Was that would beg again, to refer to examinations danger ascribed by them to the particular which were taken before the committee 600g conduct of the bank towards them. 4. To after that period.-Q. Had you any money the l'est of my recollection it was.
transactions on the part of the public with the you believe the conduct of the bank towards house of Boyd, sabsequent to the loan of them at that time to have been an exception the spring 1796 ? A. I think there was an to their then general conduct? 4. I do issue of money to them for public service, not know that it was, but I have not suffi which appeared in the extraordinary of the cient knowledge of the particulars to form a army in 1797.-Q. To what amount? judgment on that subject. Q. Was it so A. It will appear by the extraordinaries ; ! stated to be by Boyd and Company? A. I think about 100,000l, and, as well as I rather think that they represented an opi recollect, it was for the remittance of nion, that the conduct of the bank was silver from India to the Cape. adopted with views unfavourable to them. Q. Did they apply to you, or were they -Q. Have you any reason to believe such
competitors for any loan subsequent to the representations were well founded ? A, I
loan for the spring 1790? A. I do not too have had no means of forming a judgment çollect.-Q. Was any information given upon that subject.-Q. Do you believe to you, or had you any reason to believe the the bank to have been under difficulties house of Boyd and Company were engiged about that period ? A. I lelieve the difticul in speculations to any amount besides their ties of the bank, which led to the suspen engagements for the loans negotiated with sions of their payments in cash in the them? A. I understood them to be engaged February following, were commencing in in very extensive pecuniary or mercantile that year, or perhaps the preceding, transactions as bankers and remitters, but Have
you any reason to believe those dith I had no knowledge of the particulars. culties to have intermitted, or have been sus. Q. Was any information given to you, or pended about the period of the advance to hint thrown out, of the probability of the Messrs. Boyd of 40,000). ? A. I do not at event which actually took place, timely
, present recollect any reason for such the failure of the house of Boyd and Corobelief. -Q Did you know that the
pany? A. I heard surmisses to that ettct, 40,0001. so advanced would be drawn from but I cannot say at what time. Can the bank? A. I had no knowledge of the you say that it was not at an earlier period particular mode by which that sum would be than the one at which the 40,0001. wadfurnished,
believe it would vanced? A. I do not think that it was. come out of the public money advanced for R: Do you know any thing of the cakes navy services ? A. I did.
Q. Ought not which led to that failure. A. Nothing po such money, according to law, to remain in cisely.-Q. Have you heard what there the bank till assigned to, or drawn for parti causes were? A. I cannot pretend to realcular navy services? A. Yes, I conceive lect them now with precision; the narrow
Q. Were you at the time aware of ing the discounts of the bank, and their such legal provisions ? A. I certainly inlist refusal in 1796 to make the accustomed alhave known the existence of the act; but vances on the loan, was stated as circunits particular provision was not at that stances very prejudicial to themn; but her time under my contemplation.Q. Did the far these were the causes of their altimate governor or deputy governor of the Bank of failure I cannot judge.
Q: Did you ever England, in the information which they hear there were large speculators in the pube gave to you of one of the reasons which in lic funds at the period of the negotiations at duced them to narrow their discounts, name Lisle ? A. I have heard such report, but ly, for the purpose of checking speculation, know nothing of the subject. What allude at all, or in any way to the house of was the nature of the injury the public w Boyd ? A. I cannot take upon myself to say likely to sustain from a full disclosure of all either way.Q. Did the governor or the circumstances relating to the advance deputy governor of the Bank of England, in made to Messrs. Boyd and Benfield, as sua the information they gave you of the reasons as they had made good all the instalments of for their conduct in narrowing their dis the loan? A. I meant in that part of my connts, state the necessity
for their so doing, answer, to apply particularly to the period in consequence of the large advances under while the instalments of the loans were not which they were to government, and which made good; the injury afterwards to the had not been replaced according to agree public would have been that of the failure
of ang great mercantile house ; but in that and carried to a priváte banker*s, but no me latter period, the principal reason I assigned morandum or document of any sort was given for avoiding isclosure, was, the injurious to me; and at this distance of time, I can effect it would himse ution the parties them- only state the substance of what passed very selves.-R. Dovori conceive the 40,0001. generally, and cannot undertake wi!h any advanced to Mr. Boyd, if it had not been so precision to recollect the particulars.advanced; would hare been productive of Had you any communication with the Trea
any interest to the public? 4. I conceive surer of the Navy in consequence of what 4. certainly not.Q. Will you state gene Mr. Raikes had told you? A. Yes, I had;
rally to the committee, what you recollect to. I took an early opportunity of stating to him have been the state of the money market in the opinion which Mr. Raikes had expressed the course of the year 1796, and the begin to me. Q. What further passed on the ning of the year 1797 ? 1. I conreive it to subject? À. I cannot state precisely the have been a period of the greatest enibar conversation that took place between us, rassment, both of public and private credit, but I was led to suppose from what passed, und it led to the circunstance of the stop tliat the Treasurer of the Navy did not les page of the payment of cash by the bank in lieve that any larger sums were drawn from the spring 1797.-Q. From the then the bank than such as were necessary for state of the public money market, in case carrying on the detail of the service in payMr. Boyd had failed in making good his pay ment to individuals ? but I beg to have it ments, and the contracts for the two loans | understood, that I cannot siate with any prea then in progress of payment had been dis cision the terms which were used, I only solved, do you conceive a 'new loan could state the general impression left upon my have been procured for the public on terms mind. Was that general impression equally advantageous ? A. I am perfectly such as to lead you to disbelieve the fact convinced that it would not, and that the stated to you by Mr. Raikes, lamely, that embarrassment that it would have occasioned money was drawn from the bank under the to the public service would have been of the authority of the Treasurer of the Navy, most serious and alarming nature.
and lodged at a private banker's ? A. It did the then state of the market,' would it have not lead me to disbelieve the facts, that mobeen easy to have made a loan in lieu there ney was drawn from the bank, and lodged of? A. No, it would have been extremely at a private banker's; but it led me to believe difficult, and I believe impossible, unless that no other sums were drawn but such as upon most unfavourable terins.
were necessary for carrying on the details of what extent.do you conceire the failure of the service. Q. Were you aware that Messrs. Boyd's loaŋ would have effected the such proceeding on the part of the Treasurer general credit of the country? A. To a of the Navy was irregular? 4. I was so far very great and serious ertent. Q: Would satisfied with the general statement so given the eifect have been such as to render the me, that I made no further inquiry, and did fulfilment of any future contract to be made not particularly advert to the provisions of with other parties, in a considerable degree, the act of parliament; and it did not occuer lo precarious and uncertain?, A. That is mat mind, that drawing such sums of money ter of opinon of which I cannot speak posi as were necessary for carrying on the details tively, but I think there would have been of the ser:ice was an illegal practice. -0. great danger of such an effect.-Q. Have Did you take any steps to verify the stateyou any knowledge of a certain sum of ments made to you, by calling for an examijublic money, amounting to 10,0001. being nation of any books, accounts, or papers on in the hands of Lord Melville in the begin the subject? 4. No, I did not; I beg leave ting of the year 1786? 1. No, I have not. to observe, that I have already stated that I 8th May
Were any representa was so far satisfied with the general statetirns at any time made to you by any body,
ment which I received in conversation with of the circunstance of money issued to the the Treasurer of the navy, that I made no tank for nary services, being drawn from further enquiry -Q. Did you inform Mr. thence, and lodged in the hands of a private Naikes of the satisfaction you had obtaired banker or bankers? A. I have a general re from your conversation with the Treasurer of collection, that Mr. Raikes, one of the bank the navy? Q. I do not recollect having directors, and, I believe, either governor or afterwards ruy conversation with Mr. Raikes deputy governor at the time, took some oča on the subject Q Did you inform arty casion to ment to me, that he believed other of the pullie servants, or any of the law sums were drawn from the bank to a larger officers of the crown, of the communication amount than le supposed to be necessary, that had teen made to you by-mir. Räikes?
4. No, I did not; no impression was left regular, and was taking steps for altering it. on my mind, after the
conversation with the Q: Had you alty conversation or care Treasurer of the Navy, to make me feel it respondence with Lord Melville in const necessary to take any steps on the subject. I quence of such communication from Lord:
Q. Although you did not know to Harrow by A. No, I had not. what extent money was so drawn from the When this communication was made to you bank by the Treasurer of the navy, and lod by Mr. Raikes, did he suggest to you any ged; at a private banker's, did you know the idea of any improper application or use of practice was continued ? A. I do not recol the nioney so taken out of the Bank A.. léct knowing any thing afterwards on the I have no recollection that he did. subject; but I conceived, from the Treasu- i Iad you, previous to the late inquiry before rer of the navy's conversation, that the the Naval Commissioners, any koowledge practice took place only as necessary for car- of, or reason to suspect that private profit rying on the services, as I have already had been made by Mr. Trotter, or any other explained, ----Q. Did you investigate such
person, of naval monies, or that the busines, necessity? A. No, I did not; I relied on of the office was so conducted as to admit of the opinion given me by the Treasurer of the private profit being made of such movies by Navy, without further examination. any officer of that department? 4. I had Q. Do you recollect how soon after the con no knowledge at any time, previous to the versation with Mr, Raikes, your conversa inquiry before the Naval Commissioners, of tion with the Treasurer of the Navy took any suci, profits having been made by any place ? A. I do not recollect with any çer- person ; nor had l any. suspicion of the tainty, but I believe very soon after ; pro- business being so conducted as to admit of it bably on the first occasion I had of conversing 'till after the communication I have before with him, when, our attention was not en- adverted to with Lord Harrowby, which gayed ly other pressing business.Q. Did
-Q. Did conversation, to the best of my recollection, Lie state to you any ground of the necessity took place when I was out of office: he alleged for placing the money at a pri- Had you, previous to the above inquiry, any vate banker's? A, I have already said, that knowledge of any other sum other than the I cannot, at this distance of time, recollect 40,000l. stated to be advanced to Mr. Boyd, the particulars of what passed; but I believe being at any time diverted from the servica that he stated his opinion of the impossibility of the navy to purposes not naval ? A. None of carrying on various detailed payments in whatever. Q. Did Lord Harrowby tell any other manner. -R. Do you recollect you that he knew, or that he had reason & that the propriety of the revision of the ex suppose, that protit had been made of pablo isțing laws on the subject formed any part money issued for naval service. Å I do of that conversation. A. No, I am per not think he told me that he knew that it suaded it did not; he did not appear to me bad, but he appeared to suppose that it migát to have any impression on his mind that what have been.----Q. Were any steps taken by was done was contrary to law.
you to ascertain the fact ? d. No; there what ground, as far as you can recollect, were not. Q: Had rou, known al die did Mr. Raikės make any communication time that profits were derived from the pubto you on the subject ?. A. I have already lic inoney placed in the hands of private stated that my recollection does not enable me bankers, should you bave deemed it irregular to refer to the particulars of the conversation, and illegal, and consequently a practice that but I conceive him to have stated, that he ought immediately to have been stopped supposed money to be withdrawn to a 4. I should certainly have deemed it a prae greater amoant than was necessary for the tice that ought iminediately to have beca public service.-Q. Had you any infor- stopped. piation at any time from any person, in any 17th May. Have you any reason manner, of irregularity in the management to suppose that 20,0001of money issued for of the public money advanced for navy ser naval services, was applied to purposes. Bot vices besides the cominunication made by naval, during the last treasurership of Lord mír. Raikes; or did you, ia point of fact, Melvilke, besides the sum of 40,000l, stated know of any such irregularities in any other to have been advanced to the house of Boyd manner ? 4. I had no such information and Bentield, in the year 1796 ?. A. I Kh hesides that referred to, nor did I know any derstood from conversation with Lord Mel: thing further on the subject until at a period ville, that to the best of his recollection, that long subsequent, I learned frożn Lord Har was nearly the amount ; and on the ground rowby, theň Treasurer of the Navy, that he I stated my belief to that effect in the Horse thought the practice wluch had prevailed ir- of Conumone. Q. Have you anyainket