Page images


pay, on

have part to

destroyed? A. At the time I was out of of- \ paying the money to him, without pretendfice; I think in 1803, -Q. Did you de ing to consider whether he was a private stroy them? A. I did; î burnt tliose "I

agent or not.

Q. Had you any public thought unnecessary to keep.----Q. Did money transactions with Mr. Tweedy offithose books or documents contain your ac- cially? 1. I had.Q. Where were counts with any other persons besides my those public official transactions recorded? Lord Melville A. They did. -Q. When A. In ihe Navy Pay Office. -Q. Are the was the release before-mentioned executed ? paymenís to Mr. Tweedy, by Lord Melville's A. In the year 1803, to the best of my re verbal order, recorded there also ? 4. They collection.-Q. When payments of the

are not in any instance. - -Q. Do you know description above stated were made, were into whose hands the 40,0001., paid by Mr. they always made to Lord Melville personal- | Wilson during your absence in the year 1796, ly? A. Not always. Q. Did you ever ? for purposes not naval, was placed? A. I A. I do not, at this moment, recollect I ever only know from the inforniation which Mr. did. -Q. To whom did


Wilson has given me upon that subject. Lord Melville's, account, public money for Q. What was that information ? A. That purposes not naval? A. I used most fre- he had paid the money to Lord Melville.quently to pay them into' the hands of the Q. By whom, 'and at what time was that principal, money conductor, one of the offi

money returned ?

A. I have already stated cers of the Navy Pay Office. Q. What in general terms, that I believe it to be rewas his name? 4. Mr. Tweedy; he is now turned by Mr. Long ; but I can only speak dead. -Q. What other persons


you with my own knowledge in respect to the make such payments to ?

A. I cannot re last payment, which, as far as I can recollect, collect any other persons at this moment. amounted to 6,0001., and which was return. Q. How long has Mr. Tweedy been dead? ed to me by Mr. Long some time in January, A. Two or three years since Lord Melville's 1798.-Q. At what period or periods was Treasurership, ceased.-Q. To what other the 34,000 1. returned, and to whom? 4.1 persons did you make such payments to ? A. have no further knowledge of the circumI do not recollect any

-Q. stance, as I was much in Scotland in the latWas there any account kept between Mr. ter end of 1796 and in the year 1797, and Tweedy and you ? A. None.Q. What the repayments were made, to the best of was the nature of the discharge you received my knowledge, during my absence; but I from Mr. Tweedy? A. I took no discharge, aṁ very certain that the 6,0001., which I re

Q. What authority did Mr. Tweedy ceired in January, 1799, completed the full produce to you for the payment of such mo repayment of the 40,0001.-Q. Were any ney? A. The demand for such money had entries made in the office-books of such repreviously been made by Lord Melville to payments? A. None that I know of.myself. - Q. Verbally, or in writing? A. Q. How then did you come to the convicVerbally.--Q. Did you keep any account tion of the payment of 6,0001. in January, of the sums paid to Mr. Tweedy, in conse 1798, making the balance of the 40,000). quence of such verbal demands of Lord Mel- paid out as before stated in the year 1790? ville ? A. I entered them in the accounts A. From a knowledge which I have at all which I kept with his-lordship.--. Are times had of the state of my balances, by they in existence ? A. I have already men which I must have seen when any deficiency tioned, that I had not thought it necessary to that

have existed was paid up-

-Q? preserve any accounts between Lord Mel How came you then not to see the dates of ville and myself, a mutual release having the repayments of such 34,000). ? A. I passed between us. -Q: Do you know the make no doubt that I may have seen the amout of any such sums which you may dates, but I have no recollection of them

whatever ? Q. Where were they recordlection does not serve me to specify any such ed? A. In my own private books.-Q.

-Q. Do you recollect any thing Where are those books? A. They are the about the date of such payments ? A. I do books before-mentioned, which I did not not. Q. Do you recollect what sort of think necessary to preserve.sums they may have been ? A. Once or the sums paid to Mr. Tweedy by Lord Meltwice they may have amounted to between ville's verbal order ever returned to you, or three or four thouls 1.d pounds, but not larger. in any way repaid to the account of the pub

-Q. In makin: such payments to Mr. lic in the Navy Pay Office, or to any other Tweedy, did you consider him as a public fund?

fund? A. They have unquestionably hein officer, or a private agent of Lord Melville ? all repaid to me, and I have accouitetor 1. I obejodnog Melville's directions in the whole of the money that has been put

other person.


Q. Were

under my charge for naval servi 'es. Q. no knou ledge of the circumstance.Q. Did Lord Melville pay interest to you for To whom was that 10,0001. repaid ? A. It such sums during the time they were in his must have been repaid to me.

-Q. In what possession ? A. Lord Melville has paid capacity did you receiye that si m that you me interest for sums of money, but not had never advanced? A. In ( facity of upon those which I have stated to have been pay master.--. Did you then conceive it paid to Mr. Tweedy.---Q. Who are Mr. to be a debt due to the public? ' A. I did. Tweedy's executors ? A. Iłe left two sons, Q: Was any interest paid upon itA. but whether they are his executors or not I None.-Q. Had not lord Melville made do not know. - -Q: Was any interest paid such acknowledgment, could you have traced on the 40,0001. advanced during your ab such debt due from him to the public, in any sence by Mr. Wilson? A. None that I of the office-books ? 1. I could certainly know of.Q. Were the sums advanced have told that the balance of the account put to Mr. Tweedy advanced out of the mixed under my charge was so much deficient. fud at Messrs. Coutts', or were they ad- Q. Was Lord Melville debited for such sum vanced out of a fund which consisted exclu in any of the books ? A. He was not.sively of public money? A. I do not recol Q. What was the nature of the acknowlect any other advances than those made out ledgment of Lord Melville ? A. Merely verof the mixed fund at Messrs. Coutts'.--. | bal. -Q. Did you conceive Mr. Tweedy What rèason had you for considering that acting as a private agent for Lord Melville, the 40,000 1. was adranced out of public mo or ever acting for him in that capacity?. A. ney? A. It was from a general inpression I consider bim, in these instances, to have wbich I received from the comirunications been acting for his lordship in a private camade to me upon this siibiect, and I do not pacity: -Q. Explain private? A. Merely know whether this 40,0001. was advanced as a person sent to me by his lordship to refrom viessrs. Coutts' or not.-Q. What ceive the money which I had previously been may have been the total amount of money, directed to pay to him.-Q. Were those described to be advanced as different tine's directions from Lord Melville to procure to Mr. Tweedy by order of Lord Melville, money generally, or to procure him public as nearly as you can recoliect? A. The to money? A. To prócuire money generally. tal amount of monies of this description, to Q. Did you consider Mr. Tweedy merethe best of my recollection,' have never, in ly as a messenger to carry the money

to Lord the whole, exceeded 30,0001. until the sum Melville, or concerned in the application of of 40,000). was added to it; but I cannot the money? 4. Merely as a messenger. state with certainty that the whole of the

Q. Of the sums you have sums constituting that 30,000l. was advanced advanced from time to time to Lord Mela to Mr. Tweedy. -Q. To whom was any ville, not exceeding the 20,0001., as menpart of the 30,0001. advanced, which was not tioned yesterday, do you know whether any paid to Mr. Tweedy? A. I have alreadly part of it was applied to any public purpose? stated, that I do not recollect.

-Q. Withia

1. I do not, but I beg to be understood, in what period of time did these issues take that this sum which I mentioned yesterday, place ! A. I mean to comprehend the whole is not connected with the sums which I have time during which I acted as Paymaster un mentioned before the Comunissioners of Nader Lord Melville, for 14 or 15 years.----Q. val Enquiry to have been occasionally in ada Why did you destroy papers in which other vance to Lord Melville, and for which I acpersons' accounts were kept, as well as Lord counted his lordship my private debtor.--Melville's? A. Because the whole of my ac Q. In the Tenth Report it is mentioned, counts were closed upon my leaving London, that a certain sum was left in Mr. Trotter's excepting some private family concerns, and hards, as the balance of the first part of the very small accounts between my friends and second greasurership, where is that sum now, myself, whieh I carried forward into new amounting to 25,454. 15. 3.? 4. The books. I desire to state to my former an greator part of it is still !! y possession, swer, that 10,0001. of the 30,0001, had ac but a small part has been prid away at one crued before I was appointed to my otilce.- payment.-Q. What was the amount of Q. By whom was the 10,000 1. advanced the small payment? A. I issued two hunA. I do not know.-Q. How did you dred pounds to the cashier to make payment know the existence of such a debt? 4. By

of a larger demand, assisted by money in the Lord Melville's acknowledgment to me.

cashier's hands. -Q. When was that pays Q. To whom did he acknowledge himself ment made ?' A. It was made in December, debtor? A. To the office.Q. Of how 18. 4, and I have taken measures within long standing had that debt been :- A. I have these two days io pay up the whole balance,

[ocr errors]

-Q. What are the measures you have Tweedy, do not exceed in the whole, and taken? A. I have inquired into the amount during the whole time of your acting as pas: of balances remaining unassigned in that master to Lord Melville, the suuof20,0001 treasurership, with a view to procure assign 4. Upon a further consideration of the sumus ments being made so as to reduce the balance. which I stated yesterday, I should wish to

Q. To whom do you propose to pay the add to that siun two or three thousad balance, when it is so reduced: 1. The pounds.-Q. When did your private agency account being nearly closed, I expect direc begin with Lord Melville? 1. I do not retions from the Auditor's Office to


the ba collect; I had no regular appoinunent as prilance into the Exchequer.---. What ob

vale agent:

Q. Were any acts of private stacles have there been in the way to an ear agency performed by you for Lord Melvise, lier settlement of this account? A. From previous to your appointment as Paymaster the peculiarly intricate manner in which the of the Navy? A. Not any.-

Q. When account of the ex-treasurers are required to did the private agency cease?

A. It has not be closed, but which intricacy arises from ceased. --- Q. Have you performed any act the minute accuracy which is observed.- of prirate agency since the execution of the Q. There is a certain sum mentioned in the releases in 1803 ? A. I have.-Q. What _135th page of the Tenth Report of the Com do you mean by members of Lord Melville's missioners of Naval Enquiry, of the sun of family? A. I mein his domestic servants. £5,563. 6. 2, which was paid into Lord -{The witness wishes to amend his anMelville's own hands in May or June, 1900, swer of yesterday, in page 20, 30 May-Xwhich was the balance of Lord Melville's I have already amended my evidence of yesfirst treasurership, ending in 1783 ; do you terday, so far as to say, that I had made arknow where that s!!m now is? A. I do not, Vances for Lord Melville to others besides any further than I have heard Lord Melville, Mr. Tweedy; and I have now finhet to within these three weeks or a month, say, anxvd my answer of yesterday, by saying, that he meant to pay it immediately into the that some of those advances made to orders Exchequer. -Q. From the state of the ac than Mr. Tweedy, but constituting the swa counts of Lord Melville's first treasurership, as I said yesterday of 20,000 1., and to which could that balance have been earlier paid to-day I have added two or three thousand into the Exchequer? A. I apprehend not pounils, were advanced from funds exclusiveuntil within these three or four months, un ly of public money; and I wish m ibis to 1 til which time that account of his lordship refer to my evidence given before the Comhad not been delivered to the auditors.--Q. missioners of Naval Enquiry, in page 220, Upon what does that depend, the delivery to as an expansion to an answer that I then the auditor ? A. The hnal arrangement of gare on that subject, an:I which, as I did not the account, in the minute manner in which recollect at that time the circumstances now I have endeavoured to describe, in which the mentioned, was then pertecdy correct; and whole payments made in the treasurership I must further amend any evitience of yesterare brought to agree in the accouut of the day by now saying, that I do not think lord sunis as certified to the several boards, wiib Melville give me verbal, or any instruction, the accounts made up in a different form, and in some instances wherein I had advanced delivered to the auditors.---- Q. Whether sums of money for his lordship to Mr. Tweedy.) any of the payments which you had made to -Q. I'pon what authority then did you Mr. Tweedy, by Lord Melville's direction, make such advances? a. I acid in diese bidany relation to those circuir stances which instances from my own judgment, in the Lord Melville had confidently communicated management of his lord ship's concerns. to you, and which you did not deem your Q. You had at times verbal instructions from self at liberty to relate, as mentioned in page Lord Velville ? 4. Yes, I had.203 in the Tenth Report! 4. I had no such the sims advanced to Mr. Tweeds and allusion.----[The witness desires to amend others, for the use of Lord Melvile; strict his evidence of' yesterday, as to suns ac by you yesterday to amount to the sum of vinced to other persons besides Mr. Tweedy, 20,66 01. to which you have added a further se page 19, 3d May--x--in looking at my sun of 2 or 3, 200l. to diz, can you 100, binker's book, I find that I have occasionally upon recollection, state how much was puh. made payments into the houses of Messrs. lie and how much private noney? 4.1 Druinmond and Messrs. Coutts, and to my have po means to enable me to siate that cirLord Melville's secretary, Mr. Abies, and cunstance with accuracy.--Q. Please to other members of his lord: hip's f.mily.) stwie it generally? 1. As reariy as I can Q. Do yon mean to say that all those pry state it, about one-da public and one-hali Bents, added to the payments inale io dir, private.-Q: Do you mean 10

-8. Of

[ocr errors]

exclusively public? 4. I do.Q. Do you I recollect any regular annual payments made mean the other half exclusively private ? A. to me on his lordship's account, althongh I I mean the other half to have been princi have received considerable sums, and in mapally advanced from my account at the house ny instances.-Q. Can you forin ariy of Messrs. Coutts and Company -Q. Of opinion of the average ? A. I cannot.the advances from 10 to 20,0001. mentioned Q. Did you receite, as far as you are inin the Tenth Report to have been made by formed, all Lord Melville's private income you to Lord Melville at different times, have in the capacity of his private agent? A. I you now any means of judging what part believe I received all his income arising in was public and what private money? 4. I this country, but I cannot speak with cerbeliere the whole to have been advanced | tainty.------Q. Did you receive for him his from my accounts at the house of Messrs. salary as Treasurer of the Navy? A. I did. Coutts and Company:

-Q. Wasthe interest Q. The whole of it? Å. As far as I always paid by Lord Melville to you on those recollèct, I did. - Q. Have you brought advances? A. It was not.

-Q. Was it the date of the releases ? A. I have.erer paid ? 1. No; his lordship paid me Q. What are they? A. They were signed no interest for those advances.-.-Q. What by Lord Melville upon the 18th of February was it that induced you to exercise your 1803, and by myself upon the 23d of that judgment in making payments to Mr. 'I'wee month.---Q. You having stated yourself dy, without any direction from Lord Mel to be still private agent to Lord Melville, ville so to do; was it from any knowledge what circumstance then led to the execution of the manner in which the monies so paid of mutual releases between you and, Lord to Mr. Tweedy was to be applied on account Melville ? A. I know no cironmstance, of Lord Melville ? A. I aliude to jxrivate excepting that of his lorelship. having left transactions in the managentent of Lore! this country, and as I thought, without any Melville's private business, in which I had intention of returning; and I conceived that general directions, although no specific di it would be a satisfaction to Lord Melville as rections on every occasion. ---Q. Are the well as myself that our heirs, in case of the committee to understand that some of the death of either of us, should have as little pyments made to Mr. Tweedy, on Lord trouble as possible in arranging the several Melville's account, were made to Mr. Twee accounts which had existed so long between dy as to a person who had the management -Q. Were the books of account deof Lord Melville's private affairs ? A. Mr. stroyed before or after the execution of the Tweedy had not the management of Lord releases ? A. It was after that date.Q. Melville's private affairs.---Q. Explain to Who preceded you as paymaster A. Mr. the Coinınittee what circumstance could in- Douglas. Q. Is he dead ? A. He is.-duce you to pay to Mr. Tweedy money on -Q. When did he die? 4. in December account of Lord Melville's private atiairs, 1785.-Q. Have you any means of knowwithout Lord Melville': direction, and with ing how long Lord Melville had had in his cut considering Mr. Tweedy as being any possession the sum of 10,0001. which Lord private agent of Lord Melville's ? A. I Melville acknowledged to have had in his have already said that I had general direc- possession at the time you became paymastions from Lord Melville in the management

ter? d. I have not. -Q. How did Lord of his private affairs, though not specific Melville describe to you that he had become ones in every instance ; and when any sum possessed of the 10,0001. which he then des of money came into my hands upon his lord- scribed himself to owe to the navy pay-ofships account, I have taken it upon me to fice ? A. I do not remember that his lord. apply that money without directions from sluip explained himself to me upon that subhis lordship.

Q. What were those general ject. -- Q. Had you any means of knowing directions A. It was a general permission whether that had been applied to a public or to act for Lord Melville as I thought proper, a private purpose

? A. I had not, further in his private affairs.

than his lordship having expressed his appre6th May.-Q. Can you recoilect any

hensions that it might ultimately be prejuditring about the repayment of the specific cial to his interest.Q. In what manner? sum of 10,000l. which, at your commenc A. He did not enter further in explanation ing paymaster, Lord Melville acknowledged with me on the subject. --Q. When you to you that he owed to the public? A, I do described this sum of 10,0001. to make part not. Q. What sums did you annually re of a sum of 30,0001. which had been adceive, as my Lord Melville's private agent, vanced to Mr. Tweedy for the use of Lord from other sources, saving those of his sa Melville, did you mean that you had been lary as Treasurer of the Navy ? --I do not informed by Mr. Tweedy of this sung being


so applied; or 'was it from Lord Melville | the Tenth Report, had not then been reonly thint ; ou derived any knowledge of this turned to the accountant, which prevented sum of 10,0001. ?" As It was from Lord the account from being delivered into the Melville only that I had any information Auditor's office ? A. His lordship has atupon the subject of this 10,0001.; and if I tested and returned the account, and it was.

the idea that this sum of money had been ad- mentions, from the statement which had vanced to Lord Melville through the means been sent to his lordship for his attestation of Mr. Tweedy, I must beg to correct that having been found incomplete.-Q. Are statement.-Q. Has' that 10,0001. been the drafts drawn upon the bank from the repaid ? A. That 10,000l. as well as every Navy Pay-Office, when paid, returned to other sum for which Lord Melville has been the office at stated periods ? A. They are indebted to the public, as Treasurer of the always returned when the book is balanced, Nary, and which has accrued since the year which has been generally, but not inväria1780, when I was appointed Paymaster, has bly, once a month.--Q: When returned, been repaid.

are they preserved ? 'A. They bare not been 7th imky.-Q. Where were the releases preserved, as they are considered to be of executed between you and Lord Melville? no use when the balance is agreed. -Q. d. The release was signed by his lordship During the fourteen years you were pap masat his own house in Scotland, and by myself ter, did you receive in all, upon Lord Melin London. -Q. Did any conversation re ville's private account, to the amount of lative to the account-books, or their destruc 20.0001. ? 1. I certainly have.--tion, take piace between you and Lord Mel. What were the sources of income in Eng. ville previous to their being destroyal? A. land, of which you described yourself yes.

The subject never came under consideration terday to be in the receipt on account of between his lordship and myseif, to ihe lesa Lord Melville ? d. I have, I believe, aniof my recollection.-Q. Has any subie formly received his salary as Treasurer of quent conversation taken placo on that sub the lary; but I do not recollect that any ject? 4. None, except of my having in other receipts which have come into my formed his lordship of the fact, and the re hands of his lordship's income was derived gret which we have loth felt on the circum from any public situation, but has been constance

.-- Q. Has any communication ly fined to sums which I may have received in letter, before or since, taken place upon the management of his private affairs. that subject ? 1. None whatever. -Q. Q. What was the largest sum you ever had Can you give to the committee any more in your hands of the private account of ląd precise explanation of the conversation Melville at one tinie?

A. That appears which you related yesterday to have taken perfectly impossible for me to ascertain, as · place between you and Lord Melville, at the his private transactions passed through an time he acknowledged liis debt of 10,000). account current in which tris lordship was to the publt, when you commenced Pay- generally indebted to me; but at other times master, or can you recollect with more pre the balance was in favour of his lordship, cision what the words were used by Lord when I neither charged interest upon any Melville ? A. I am sorry, from the dis balance due by his lordship, nor did I tance of time when that conversation touk charge myself with any interest at times place, that I have it not in my power to give when the balance may have been in his lord. any further explanation upon that subject. ship's favour. ---Q. Do you recollect the

- Q. Please to repeat his words, as near as largest balance in the account current that you can recollect, that you before mention ever appeared in favour of Lord Melville ? ed? 4. His lordship expressed his appre A. In an account comprehending so long a hensions that the circumstance alluded to period, it is very difficult for me to give an migit ultimately prove prejudicial to him, accurate answer to that question ; but it cerand which I concluded to be meant in a pe- tainly has at some time been as large as becuniary light.-----Q. What circumstance? tween 2,0001. or 3,000). in Lord Melville's 1. The circumstance of the balance put un favour. Q. Do you recollect the kırgest der my charge being about 10,000). loss ihan balance in the account current that ever apthe balance for which he was accountable to peared in your favour, with the same degree the public. Do you know whether of accuracy ? d. I do not recollect with L-rd Melville has attested and returned to the same degree of accuracy, but I have uptie proper officer; the general statement of on a former occasion declared it had never his accounts transmitted to him to attest, exceeded from 10 to 20,0001.-Q. Do but which, as appears in the 134th page of you now allude, to the sums mentioned in

[ocr errors][ocr errors]
« PreviousContinue »