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Q. What was the amount of the bills bills, and as no fun:I was exclusively set apart issued in Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, for the payment of them, the amount being Mr. George Glenny, and to
perfectly uncertain, the expedient of in account of sundry naval services ? A. To suing new bills to pay those becoming due Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, between was absolutely necessary to keep up their October 1800 and May 1802, the sum of credit; the sums so issued were regularly four millions three hundred thousand pounds; paid into the hands of the Treasurer of th: and to eat three different periods, Navy, and the public suffered no loss cherehy between October 1799 and March 1801, beyond the comnon interest.
Q. Were one hundred thousand pounds. —Q. Did any persons accommodated with these bills, these bills differ in form from the bills other than the holders of ninety-day bills usually issued at ninety days ? A. In no other way than in stating, that they were of the bills imprested, or charged against för general naval service; the other bills the persons to whom they were issued, or particularising the services for which they any olher person? A. No. they were not were issued. - Q. Had there 'been any issued by way of imprest ; the brokers who stores delivered, or services performed by were employed by the Treasury for the sale those perons, at the time of issuing those of exchequer bills, Messrs. Benjamin and bills, or were they under orders to perform Abraham Goldsmids, and Messrs. Antrobus any service, or to purchase any stores for the and Wood, had the buls made out 10 such use of the navy? . A. There were services persans as they thought proper ; they underperformed by
but by the others taking to be security for the payment, and none. These bilis were issued for the purpose producing the parties ar the Navy Board, an! of the amount being paid into the hands of frequently paying the money into the hands the Treasurer of the Navy to discharge ninety- of the Treasurer before the bills could be day bills then become due, by order of the made out. - Had bills for the pura Lords Cominissioners of the Treasury. It pose of raising money ever been issued prewill be here necessary for me to state, in vious to October, 1900 ? A. Not that I order to give the Commissioners a clear know of, there does not appear to have idea of that transaction, that an act of been any occasion. -Q. Have the Navy parliament took place io 1796, for discharg- Board, or Comptrolier of the Navy, by art ing all navy bills in ninety days. The Trea of parliament or palent, power to draw bills sury were occasionally apprized of the time otherwise than for services performed, or the bills became due.- In September 1800, stores supplied, or by way of imprest for money not being then in the Treasury suffi. services to be performed, or stores to be supe cient to discharge the ninety-siay bills then | plied ? 1. 1 bave an objection to answer become dur, their lordships gave orders that ihat question. You, gentlemen, have beBuch persons as thonght proper might be ac fore you the navy patent, and order in coun. commodated with new ninety-day bills in cil, on which the Board is io act. Youn discharge of those due, until further order. alio know the Comptroller has an authority But more hills becoming due 10 persons 10 execute any secret services entrusted in who were desirous of receiving their mo him by the governnent. ---Q. Upon what hey, their lordships directed an issue of grounds do you object to answer the aburuz bills to be put into the hands of the broker question.? A. Upon lle fitih section of this employed by them to dispose of exchequer act of the 430 Geo. III. cap. 16. bilis, who undertook, upon receiving the what manner is money supplied wù the bills, to pay the amount into the hands of Treasurer of the Navy, for the services of The Treasurer of the Navy, for the purpose that department ? A. By the Commissioners above-mentioned The Treasurer was in of the Navy authorizing the Treasurer of formed by the Navy Board of the circumn the Navy tu solicit the Lords Commissioner: stance, and directed to receive the money of the Treasury, and which had been dons for the purpose of discharging the bills as in the cases before recited, previous, to rethey became due. - The mode of paying ceiving any order for isæving the navy
billa navy bills at ninety days was an immense above-mentioned. Q: Were any of the saving to the public, as, previous to the act bills issued to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, of parliansent taking place, bills were at a Mr. George Glenny, orocharged discount of hear fifteen per cent which was as an imprest against any of those persons ? borne br the public ; and had it not been d To
they were, but not to iba ' for ibis cinely remedly, would certainly have others; the order from the Treasury directe
increased. "l'he great object, therefore, was ing the aniount to be placed as an import to keep up the credit of the ninety-day against
Q. W by were the bi.in
issued to charged as an imprest, | Navy Board to pay the amount into the anci those issued to the other persons not so bands of the Treasurer of the Navy, and a
charged against thein? A. Because, i he for letter was at the same time written to the mer were to defray the expense of secret Treasurer to receive such amount.---Q. services performed, by him, and the latter Have the persons to whom the bills were paid the amount of the bills they received issued duly accounted for the sameA. immediately into the hands of the Treasurer They have.--Q. When were the bills in of the Navy. Q. Was the whole amount favour of
issued? Ai At diffe of the four millions abree hundred thousand rent times, from the 4th October 1799 tə pounds, for which bills were made out to 141h March 1801.--Q: When, and by Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, paid over to what order, was the imprese against the Treasurer of the Navy? A. Yes. taken off?
had paid five Q. What was the nature of the directions thousand pounds of it into the hands of the given by the Lords Commissioners of ihe Treasurer of the Navy some time back. Treasury, for issuing the bills ? A. Their and the remaining imprest of pinety-five lordships directions were given by their Se thousand pounds was taken off within these cretary's letters to the Navy Board, and en two mon:hs, by an order from the Lords of closed confidentially to ihe Comptroller. the Treasury. Q. What was the reason
Q. Was the amount of the bills to be given for removing the imprest? A. That issued at different times specifically directed, their lordships were satisfied that the naval or was it left to your discretion, or the dis services for which the money had been iscretion of the Navy Board ? d. The sued had been actually performed.amount was specifically directed.- -Q. Did the Navy Board ever pay money, or What means were taken to discharge these issue bills on account of secret services, bills when they became due ?
A. The same
except the bills issued to ---? A. means as were used for the paying of other They have in other instances issued Dary ninety-day bills when they became due, bills for secret service, but never when that and of which they became a part -Q. | service has not been naval ? Were all these bills paid off when they be such secret services performed under the came due, or were other bills issued in lieu orders of the Navy Board, or are they made of them? A. They were paid off when acquainted with the services ? Alf the they became due. -Q. What interest or order from government is directed to the advantage did the persons in whose favour Comptroller *** secret and confidential," he the bills were drawn derive from them? A. communicates only with the Committee of Not the least; they only permitted their Accounis ill the service is executed, and names to be inserted by the desire of the bro then lays the whole transaction, with his kers who undertook to pay the amount. proceedings thereon, before the Board, for Q. Were tliese bills payable at ninety dais, their judgment and decision. Have and the interest for that time added to the
you laid before the Navy Board all the cire principal sum' of the bill ? A. They were cumstances of the transaction respecting the exactly upon the footing of all other bills, one hundred thousand pounds issued to and bore an interest from the day they were
for their judgment and decision ? issued.-.-Q. For what purpose was interest A. The letter from the Tressury directing added? A. The interest was added agree the clearing bill to
has been read ably to act of parliament.--Q. Did the per to the Board; but the service is of so delisons employed to negociate the bills account caie a nainre; that although I am acquainted to the Treasurer of ibe Navy for the prin- with it, I still think it prudent not ie make cipal and interest of the bills ? A. They the circumstance public.
-Q. Was ihe sterregularly accounted with the Treasurer of
vice perforined by
under the orders the Navy for the principal, who certified of tbe Comptroller ? A. No.-Q. Under the receipt with other mcneys that had come whose directions were those secret naval serinto bis hands. The payments being made vices performed, for which the imprest of so soon after the issue of the bills, very lit one hundred thousand pounds was made to tle interest could occur for the benefit of the
- ? A. Under the direction of the brokers.--Q. What allowance had the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, and persons for negociating them ? A. None. with the knowledge and approbation of the
- By whose direction were the bro First Lord of the Admiralty.--. Have kors made to account to the Treasurer of
accounted with the Navy Board the Navy for the produce of such bills ? for the expenditure of the money impressed ús. At the time of issuing the bills to the against them? A. No.-Q. Have inonies
bruker's, a letter was writien to them by the for secret service ever been issued by the
Navy Board to any other persons than have given the reason in my former answer,
of the expenditure of which the and it was not thought necessary to detail Navy Board were not ultimately made ac the particolars of the articles in the bills, quainted ? A. No, if the services have more especially as the increase of business been terminated. Q. Had
been rendered it necessary to abridge whatever called upon by the Navy Board, previous 10 might appear superfluous.-Q. Has it the imprest being removed, to account for been the practice of the Navy Board to draw the produce of the bills issued to them? bills on the Treasurer of the Navy, or to d. No, it was not a service that the Navy pay money in compliance with directions Board have been acquainted with. ---Q. from the Lords of the Treasury ? A. Yes, As it appears that several 'bills were made R. What is the nature of the services out on the 23d October 1800, to Mr. Corn for which ihe Treasury direct the Navy wall Smalley for su: dry naval services, which Board to pay ? A. All lead money cases, were forwarded to him, and returned on where, from the want of pecessary vouchers, the following day, cancelled and burned, the Navy Board have not felt themselves you are desired to explain the nature of this authoriz:d to pay without their direction ; transaction? A. The biils that were made bounty bills; some pensions and rewards, out to Mr. Gieony were originally made and sign manuals.---Q. Was the Treaout to Mr. Smalley, but Mr. Smalloy sta surer of the Navy, about the time of isving an objection, they were cancelled, suing the bills to the persons before-named, and Mr. Glenny was brought by Mr. regularly supplied with the money he was Goldsmid the next day... -Q. What was desired by the Navy Board to apply for ? ibe nature of the objection stated b. Mr. A. No. Q. Did any difficulties arise to Smalley?
A. As he had other concerns the public service in consequence of the with the Board, he seemed to think it might money not being regularly supplied ? A. interfere with thein.---Q. Was any mi- None, owing to the expedient which was Dule made on the proceedings of the Board adopted ; but there would have been a very respecting the issuing or negociating of the serions inconvenience, if some measure of bills to Messrs. Dooaldson and Glenny, Mr. that sort had not been resorted to, to preGeorge Glenny, and
?--. I vent the navy bills falling into disrepute, do not thirk there was ; it was considered and frequently for want of ready money as a confidential service. Q. In the called for on a sudden 10 send down to the account of out-standing bills laid before ports to pay ship's companies. ----Q. At parliament, as forming a part of the debt ihe time of issuing the bills in questior, of the navy, were these bills distinguished
and what bills, which from those issued for services performed, or the Navy Board thought it right to defer stores supplied ? 1. No. Q. When the payment of A. I do not remember were the bills at ninety days first issued ? the payment of sny bills baving been deA. I think about January 1797 ; the bill ferred.---Q. Did the Lords Commissioners passed the 30th of December 1796.--Q. of the Admiralty give any directions to you Previous to that time did the binis specify or to the Navy Board, respecting the issue the nature, quantity, and price of the of the bills to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenarticles for which they were issued in pay. ny, Mr. George Glenny, or to
? ment? A. Yes.---Q. Do the bills now A. I had frequent conversations with the issued so specify the nature, quantity, and
Firat Lord of the Admiralty on the subject, price of the articles for which they are is. but do not recollect any order given by the sued in payment? A. Previous to the pas Board of Admiralty on these points. sing of the act, the bills for stores were Was it officially communicated to the made out at the yards, according to the Admiraliy, that the Navy Board were about warrants and prices; but as the new mode to issue, or that they had issued such bills ? of payment was ihought to be more bene A. No.---[Signed by A. S. HAMOND, ficial to the merchants, three montlis credit and by the COMMISSIONERS.] was exacted, therefore the yards were directed to send up certificates of ihe stores they had received, whiclı, after lying three DREW SNAPE HAMOND, BART.; TAKEN months in the office, and undergoing the UPON OATH, THIS STH DAY OF JUNE, necessary examination, a ninety-day navy 1804 bill was delivered to the party for the Q. Was the amount of the ninety-day amount, specifying only the general beads bills more uncertain in the years when itie of the service performed. Q. Why was
bills weje drawn for the pur;ose of raising the former practice departed from ? A. I money than in fornier years? A. I do live
THE FURTHER EXAMINATION OF SIR AV
recollect; the amount was always uncertain. | tween Sir Andrew Hamond and myself ; te: Are the votes of money for the ser when he inquired:of me, if I did not meet vice of rhie navy made on estimates laid be- with considerable difficulty in procuring tore parliament by the Navy Board, of the money for tbe very large soms of victualling probable expenses in the ensuing years ? bills which necessarily pass through my
t. The estimates voted by parliament are hands. I answered, that I never met with according to the number of men intended any difficulty. He asked me through what to be employed, at the rate of 71. a man channel I obtained the money; I informed per month ; but the ordinary and extra bim, that I had been in the habit for several ordinary of the Navy are vored separately years of giving to Messrs. Goldsmids all the un estimates laid before parliament. Q. bills as I received themi, on the condition Did the expenses of the navy since the that they would supply me with any sum of establishment of the ninety-day bills, io the money, not exceediog ihe value of the bills, years in which money was raised by the bills whenever I had occasion for it, without any issued as betore described, exceed the esti | previous notice. He continued his inquiry, inates in a greater degree than in the years and asked, io what extent Messrs. Goldsmids preceding, in which this measure was not had could at any time furnish me with money recourse to? A. I must refer to the ex without previous notice; I told hin, that I Jense of the riavy for those years for an never had had occasion to try to what esanswer to that question. Q. Did the ne tent they could go, but that I had understood cessity of raising money by issujug ninety. from them they could raise from the extent day bills for that purpose, arise from a defi of five hundred thousand pounds in a day, if ciency in the votes for naval services ? A. it were necessary. He inquired what cop Sometimes I conce ve the necessity arose sideration I paid them; I informed him, that from a deficiency of money in the Trea the consideration varied according to the sury, at others from the naval supplies being time the bills had to run when I received the eshausted, as I believe was the case in Oc money; from one quarter to one-eighth per tober 1800, when the measure was first re cent. He asked me, how they could take sorted to.--Signed by Sir Andrew Ha that to avoid usury; 'I informed hitr, that mond and the Commissionars.]
they never discounted the bills tlumselves;
they advanced nioney, and kept them until ,
some person wbo bad money to spare applied tember, 1800. GENTLEMEN, - I am
for such tills, charging five per cent. for the commanded by the Lords Commissioners of time the loan had been made, and the quarter His Majesty's Treasury to desire that you or eightb per cent. as a brokerage. He in. will signify to the Treaeurer of the Navy, formed me, that their office was very often the desire of this Board, that he notify to under great difficulties for went of rady naoihe persons having ninety day davy bills nry, when the treasury could not issue ii, aud now due, and wishing to have a renewal of asked, if I thought any means could be dethe same, instead of receiving the amount vised whereby they might obtain occasional in cash, that they may be accomodated with assistance through the usedium of such bills, new bills, bearing the same interrst; and and the Golsinidy; I informed him thai ! lint he would continue the same acconio would communicate with them, and let him dation of the parties till further police froin know; 1 accordingly had an interview with this Board. I am, Gentlemen, your Niessrs. Goldsmids on the subject, and we inost humble servant, Cuas. LONG. waiied the riext morning on Sir Andrew [Addressed to the Commissioners of tbe Vzvy.] Hamond togetlics, when Mr. Goldsmid inr.
formed bini, if such bills could be made out, No. III.
THE EXAMINATION OF GEORGE that they could furnish the office with any GLENNY, ESQ. TAKEN UPON OATI, THE sum they might require upon a day's gotice. 22D JUNE, 1S04.
The only dithculty then was, how -10 issue Q It appearing that bills to the amount the bills, and, after some consideration, I of one million sterling were drawn in your agreed that the bilis should be made payable fnvour in the years 1800 and 1801, by the lu me; ibe result was, that these bills were Navy Board, for the purpose of raising mo. made ont, sometimes one hundred thousand ney, wliat circumstances led to the use of or one hundred and filty thousand pounds at your name, and what advantage did you de. a time, and I endorsed them and banded them rive from that l'ansactivo? A. The cir over to Messrs. Goldsmids, first having actumstances which led to my nằme being knowledged the receipt of the bills to the Dised, arose in the first instance from an ar board. by letter. Here ihe transaction ended, cidental conversation which touk place be as far as regarded me, and I derived po ade
vantage or emolument, directly or indirectly, stores have been delivered, nor services perin contemplation or otherwise, from this formed. A. I know of none, but Ibose transaction. R. It appearing also that made out to Donaldson, and Glenpy, to bills for a similar parpose, 10 the amount of
and 10 Mr. George Glenny. Q. three millions three hundred thousand What was the object of ibe bills issued to pounds, were drawn in tavour of Messrs. those persoos? A. I apprehend as a tempoDonaldson and Glenny in 1801 and 1802, rary assistance to government. (a) R. what circumstances led to the use of the tirm What was the nature of the directions you of your house in preference to your name, received of marking out such bills, and from and what advantage did you, or the house to whom? A. Papers requiring me at differ. which you belonged, derive from that trans ent periods to cause bills to be made out 10 action. A. The circumstance that led to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, 10. these bills being made payable to Donaldson
or Mr. George Gleony, to and Glenny, was, that as they had consider certain amounts, signed in general by the able dealings with the public, it was con Comptroller of the Navy singly.-Q. What ceived that the change might the better con. orders were given to you for making out bills ceal from the public eye the temporary neces for stores delivered, or services performed? sity which occasioned the issue of these bills; A. I receive no orders; the bills are made and neither Alexander Donaldson nor myself out of course on the receipt of the certificate received, directly or indirectly, any advan of the delivery of the stores at the yards, if tage or emolument whatever, in contempla found correct. Q. To what amount do tion or otherwise, from this transaction. you apprehend bills 10 have been made out Q. Has any allowance been made, or is any to be persons wbony you have stated ?, A. allowance to be made to Messrs. Goldsmids About four millions four hundred thousand for negotiating such bills ? A. I understand pounds, as follows: there either has, or will be, some considera-. To Mr. George Glenny
1,100,000 tion made to Messrs. Goldsmids; but what To Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny 3,200,000 the quantum is I do not know. (Signed by To
100,000 George GLENNY, und, by TIE COMMISSIONERS ]
£4,400,000 No. IV. Exhibits a detailed enumeration Q. Between what periods were such bills of these bills, specifying their amount, their made out? A. Between October, 1800 and dates, &c. &c.
May, 1802. Q: Did such bills differ in
their form from those issued for stores deNo. V. THE EXAMINATION OF WILLIAM livered, or services performed? 4. The
L'OSTER, ESQUIRE, CHIEF CLERK IN THE wording of these bills was “ On Account of OFFICE FOR BILLS AND ACCOUNTS, IN " suvdry Naval Services.". The wording of THE NAVY OFFICE ; TAKBN UPON OATH, the others, “ On Account of the particular The 31st May, 1804.
Stores, or for the particular Services.". Q. How long have you been in your Q.. What was the nature of the charge or present situation, and what are the duties at. imprest placed against the persons to whom tached to it? A. I have bcen in my pre. sucb bills were issued ? A. An imprest was sent situation since December, 1801; and charged against
for the my duty is to superintend the whole business amount of the bills issued to him, which was of the office for bills and accounts. --Q.
cleared about a week or ten days ago, by an What is the process of making out bills for order from the Lords Commissioners of the stores delivered, or services performed ? A. Treasury. There was no imprest charged Upon the certificates of the delivery of the against the other persons; the were not stores at the yards being received at the of imprest bills, but regular bills, and consefice, they are examined with respect to the quently no imprest could be charged. ---Q. prices, lo see that they are agrecable to the Do you koow why the amount of the bills contracts and warrants, and the computations
was charged as are checked, and if sound correct, a bill of an imprest against him, and those issued to exchange is then made out to the parties, the other persons not so charged againse signed by three members of the board, pay.
them? 8. I do noi. Q. To whom were able at ninety days ; the interest on which is The bills delivered? A. They were in geadded to the sum of the bill; and the nature neral sent to Mr. Glenny, or delivered to of the services for which the bills are issued Mr. Goldsmid.-Q. You have said, tha is stated on the bills.-R. Have there you apprehend the bills were issued as a beer any bills made out for which neither temporary assistance to government; i.