Q. What was the amount of the bills issded to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, Mr. George Glenny, and to

--

account of sundry naval services? 4. Το Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, between October 1800 and May 1802, the sum of four millions three hundred thousand pounds; and to at three different periods, between October 1799 and March 1801, one hundred thousand pounds.-Q. Did these bills differ in form from the bills usually issued at ninety days? A. In no other way than in stating, that they were for general naval service; the other bills particularising the services for which they were issued. - Q. Had there been any stores delivered, or services performed by those perons, at the time of issuing those bills, or were they under orders to perform any service, or to purchase any stores for the use of the navy? A. There were services performed by but by the others none. These bills were issued for the purpose of the amount being paid into the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy to discharge ninetyday bills then become due, by order of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. It will be here necessary for me to state, in order to give the Commissioners a clear idea of that transaction, that an act of parliament took place in 1796, for discharging all navy bills in ninety days. The Treasury were occasionally apprized of the time the bills became due.-In September 1800, money not being then in the Treasury suffi cient to discharge the ninety day bills then become due, their lordships gave orders that such persons as thought proper might be accommodated with new ninety-day bills in discharge of those due, until further order. Bot more bills becoming due to persons who were desirous of receiving their money, their lordships directed an issue of bills to be put into the hands of the broker employed by them to dispose of exchequer bills, who undertook, upon receiving the bills, to pay the amount into the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy, for the purpose above-mentioned The Treasurer was informed by the Navy Board of the circumstance, and directed to receive the money for the purpose of discharging the bills as they became due. The mode of paying navy bills at ninety days was an immense saving to the public, as, previous to the act of parliament taking place, bills were at a discount of hear fifteen per cent which was borne by the public; and had it not been for this timely remedy, would certainly have increased. The great object, therefore, was to keep up the credit of the ninety-day

bills, and as no fun I was exclusively set apart for the payment of them, the amount being perfectly uncertain, the expedient of is suing new bills to pay those becoming due was absolutely necessary to keep up their credit; the sums so issued were, regularly paid into the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy, and the public suffered no loss thereby beyond the common interest. Q. Were

any persons accommodated with these bills, other than the holders of ninety-day bills then due? 4. No.-Q. Was the amount of the bills imprested, or charged against the persons to whom they were issued, or any other person? 4. No. they were not issued by way of imprest; the brokers who were employed by the Treasury for the sale of exchequer bills, Messrs. Benjamin and Abraham Goldsmids, and Messrs. Antrobus and Wood, had the bills made out to such persans as they thought proper; they undertaking to be security for the payment, and producing the parties at the Navy Board, and frequently paying the money into the hands of the Treasurer before the bills could be made out.-2. Had bills for the purpose of raising money ever been issued previous to October, 1800? A. Not that I know of, there does not appear to have been any occasion. Q. Have the Navy Board, or Comptroller of the Navy, by ast of parliament or patent, power to draw bills otherwise than for services performed, or stores supplied, or by way of imprest for services to be performed, or stores to be supplied? 1. I have an objection to answer that question. You, gentlemen, have before you the navy patent, and order in coun cil, on which the Board is to act. also know the Comptroller has an authority to execute any secret services entrusted to him by the government,--Q. Upon what grounds do you object to answer the above question.? A. Upon the fifth section of the act of the 430 Geo. III. cap. 16.what manner is money supplied to the Treasurer of the Navy, for the services of that department? 4. By the Commissioners of the Navy authorizing the Treasurer of the Navy to solicit the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, and which had been done in the cases before recited, previous, to receiving any order for issuing the navy bills above-mentioned.-Q. Were any of the bills issued to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, Mr. George Glenny, or o charged as an imprest against any of those persons? A To ---- they were. but not to the others; the order from the Treasury directing the amount to be placed as an imprest against Q. Why were the bil

You

Q. In

issued to

charged as an imprest,

and those issued to the other persons not so charged against them? 4. Because the former were to defray the expense of secret services performed by him, and the latter paid the amount of the bills they received immediately into the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy.- Q. Was the whole amount of the four millions three hundred thousand pounds, for which bills were made out to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, paid over to the Treasurer of the Navy? A. YesQ. What was the nature of the directions given by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, for issuing the bills? A. Their lordships directions were given by their Secretary's letters to the Navy Board, and enclosed confidentially to the Comptroller.

-Q. Was the amount of the bills to be issued at different times specifically directed, or was it left to your discretion, or the discretion of the Navy Board? A. The amount was specifically directed. Q. What means were taken to discharge these bills when they became due? A. The same means as were used for the paying of other ninety-day bills when they became due, and of which they became a part -Q. Were all these bills paid off when they became due, or were other bills issued in lieu of them? A. They were paid off when they became due.-Q. What interest or advantage did the persons in whose favour the bills were drawn derive from them? A. Not the least; they only permitted their names to be inserted by the desire of the brokers who undertook to pay the amount.Q. Were these bills payable at ninety days, and the interest for that time added to the principal sum of the bill? A. They were exactly upon the footing of all other bills, and bore an interest from the day they were issued.- Q. For what purpose was interest added? A. The interest was added agreeably to act of parliament.-Q. Did the persons employed to negociate the bills account to the Treasurer of the Navy for the principal and interest of the bills? A. They regularly accounted with the Treasurer of the Navy for the principal, who certified the receipt with other moneys that had come into his hands. The payments being made so soon after the issue of the bills, very little interest could occur for the benefit of the brokers.-Q. What allowance had the persons for negociating them? A. None.

By whose direction were the brokers made to account to the Treasurer of the Navy for the produce of such bills? 4. At the time of issuing the bills to the brokers, a letter was written to them by the

Navy Board to pay the amount into the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy, and a letter was at the same time written to the Treasurer to receive such amount.-Q. Have the persons to whom the bills were issued duly accounted for the same? A. They have.. -Q. When were the bills in favour of issued? A: At different times, from the 4th October 1799 to 14th March 1801.- -Q. When, and by what order, was the imprest againsttaken off? A. had paid five thousand pounds of it into the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy some time back. and the remaining imprest of ninety-five thousand pounds was taken off within these two months, by an order from the Lords of the Treasury.- Q. What was the reason given for removing the imprest? A. That their lordships were satisfied that the naval services for which the money had been is sued had been actually performed.-2. Did the Navy Board ever pay money, or issue bills on account of secret services, except the bills issued to -? A.

66

They have in other instances issued navy bills for secret service, but never when that service has not been naval? - Q. Are such secret services performed under the orders of the Navy Board, or are they made acquainted with the services? If the order from government is directed to the Comptroller secret and confidential," he communicates only with the Committee of Accounts till the service is executed, and then lays the whole transaction, with his proceedings thereon, before the Board, for their judgment and decision.-Q. Have you laid before the Navy Board all the cir cumstances of the transaction respecting the one hundred thousand pounds issued to for their judgment and decision? A. The letter from the Tressury directing the clearing bill to has been read

to the Board; but the service is of so delicate a natnre; that although I am acquainted with it, I still think it prudent not to make the circumstance public.-Q. Was the ser under the orders vice performed by

of the Comptroller? A. No.-Q. Under whose directions were those secret naval services performed, for which the imprest of one hundred thousand pounds was made to

? A. Under the direction of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, and with the knowledge and approbation of the First Lord of the Admiralty.-Q. Have

accounted with the Navy Board for the expenditure of the money imprested against them? A. No.-Q. Have inonies for secret service ever been issued by the

been

answer,

have given the reason in former my and it was not thought necessary to detail the particulars of the articles in the bills, more especially as the increase of business rendered it necessary to abridge whatever might appear superfluous.Q. Has it been the practice of the Navy Board to draw bills on the Treasurer of the Navy, or to pay money in compliance with directions from the Lords of the Treasury? A. Yes.

Navy Board to any other persons than of the expenditure of which the Navy Board were not ultimately made acquainted? 4. No, if the services have been terminated.-Q. Had. called upon by the Navy Board, previous to the imprest being removed, to account for the produce of the bills issued to them? 4. No, it was, not a service that the Navy Board have been acquainted with.- -Q. As it appears that several 'bills were made out on the 23d October 1800, to Mr. Cornwall Smalley for sundry naval services, which were forwarded to him, and returned on the following day, cancelled and burned, you are desired to explain the nature of this transaction? A. The bills that were made out to Mr. Glenny were originally made out to Mr. Smalley, but Mr. Smalley stating an objection, they were cancelled, and Mr. Glenny was brought by Mr. Goldsmid the next day.-Q. What was the nature of the objection stated by Mr. Smalley A. As he had other concerns with the Board, he seemed to think it might interfere with them.-Q. Was any minote made on the proceedings of the Board respecting the issuing or negociating of the bills to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, Mr. George Glenny, and - ?A. I

do not think there was; it was considered as a confidential service. Q. In the account of out-standing bills laid before parliament, as forming a part of the debt of the navy, were these bills distinguished from those issued for services performed, or stores supplied? 4. No. Q. When

were the bills at ninety days first issued? 4. I think about January 1797; the bill passed the 30th of December 1796--Q. Previous to that time did the bills specify the nature, quantity, and price of the articles for which they were issued in pay. ment? A. Yes.-Q. Do the bills now issued so specify the nature, quantity, and price of the articles for which they are is sued in payment? A. Previous to the passing of the act, the bills for stores were made out at the yards, according to the warrants and prices; but as the new mode of payment was thought to be more beneficial to the merchants, three months credit was exacted, therefore the yards were directed to send up certificates of the stores they had received, which, after lying three months in the office, and undergoing the necessary examination, a ninety-day navy bill was delivered to the party for the amount, specifying only the general heads of the service performed.-Q. Why was the former practice departed from? A. I

Q. What is the nature of the services for which the Treasury direct the Navy Board to pay? A. Alt head money cases, where, from the want of necessary vouchers, the Navy Board have not felt themselves authorized to pay without their direction; bounty bills; some pensions and rewards, and sign manuals.-Q. Was the Treasurer of the Navy, about the time of issuing the bills to the persons before-named, regularly supplied with the money he was desired by the Navy Board to apply for? A. No.- -Q. Did any difficulties arise to the public service in consequence of the money not being regularly supplied? A. None, owing to the expedient which was adopted; but there would have been a very serious inconvenience, if some measure of that sort had not been resorted to, to prevent the navy bills falling into disrepute, and frequently for want of ready money called for on a sudden to send down to the ports to pay ship's companies.-Q. At · the time of issuing the bills in question, were there any, and what bills, wh.ch the Navy Board thought it right to defer the payment of? A. 1 do not remember the payment of any bills having been deferred.- -Q. Did the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty give any directions to you or to the Navy Board, respecting the issue of the bills to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, Mr. George Glenny, or to

A. I had frequent conversations with the First Lord of the Admiralty on the subject, but do not recollect any order given by the Board of Admiralty on these points.Q Was it officially communicated to the Admiralty, that the Navy Board were about to issue, or that they had issued such bills? A. No.[Signed by A. S. HAMOND, and by THE COMMISSIONERS.]

THE FURTHER EXAMINATION OF SIR AN

DREW SNAPE HAMOND, BART.; TAKEN UPON OATH, THIS 8TH DAY OF JUNE, 1804.

Q. Was the amount of the ninety-day bills more uncertain in the years when the bills wese drawn for the purpose of raising money than in former years? 4. I do not

recollect; the amount was always uncertain.

Q. Are the votes of money for the service of the navy made on estimates laid be tore parliament by the Navy Board, of the probable expenses in the ensuing years? 4. The estimates voted by parliament are according to the number of men intended to be employed, at the rate of 71. a man per month; but the ordinary and extraordinary of the Navy are voted separately on estimates laid before parliament. Q. Did the expenses of the navy since the establishment of the ninety-day bills, in the years in which money was raised by the bills issued as before described, exceed the estiinates in a greater degree than in the years preceding, in which this measure was not had recourse to? A. I must refer to the expense of the navy for those years for an answer to that question.-Q. Did the necessity of raising money by issuing ninety day bills for that purpose, arise from a deficiency in the votes for naval services? A. Sometimes I conce ve the necessity arose from a deficiency of money in the Treasury, at others from the naval supplies being exhausted, as I believe was the case in October 1800, when the measure was first resorted to.- -[Signed by Sir Andrew Hamond and the Commissioners.]

No. II. Treasury Chambers, 7th September, 1800. GENTLEMEN, — I am commanded by the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury to desire that you will signify to the Treasurer of the Navy, the desire of this Board, that he notify to the persons having ninety day navy bills now due, and wishing to have a renewal of the same, instead of receiving the amount in cash, that they may be accomodated with new bills, bearing the same interest; and that he would continue the same accomodation of the parties till further notice from this Board. I am, Gentlemen, your inost humble servant, CHAS. LONG.[Addressed to the Commissioners of the Navy.]

[tween Sir Andrew Hamond and myself; when he inquired of me, if I did not meet with considerable difficulty in procuring money for the very large sums of victualling bills which necessarily pass through my hands. I answered, that I never met with any difficulty. He asked me through what channel I obtained the money; I informed him, that I had been in the habit for several years of giving to Messrs. Goldsmids all the bills as I received them, on the condition that they would supply me with any sum of money, not exceeding the value of the bills, whenever I had occasion for it, without any previous notice. He continued his inquiry, and asked, to what extent Messrs. Goldsmids could at any time furnish me with money without previous notice; I told him, that I never had had occasion to try to what estent they could go, but that I had understood from them they could raise from the extent of five hundred thousand pounds in a day, if it were necessary. He inquired what consideration I paid them; I informed him, that the consideration varied according to the time the bills had to run when I received the money; from one quarter to one-eighth per cent. He asked me, how they could take that to avoid usury; I informed him, that they never discounted the bills themselves; they advanced money, and kept them until some person who bad money to spare applied for such bills, charging five per cent. for the time the loan had been made, and the quarter or eighth per cent. as a brokerage. He in formed me, that their office was very often under great difficulties for want of ready mency, when the treasury could not issue it, and asked, if I thought any means could be devised whereby they might obtain occasional assistance through the medium of such bills, and the Goldsmids; I informed him that I would communicate with them, and let him know; 1 accordingly had an interview with Messrs. Goldsmids on the subject, and we waited the next morning on Sir Andrew Hamond together, when Mr. Goldsmid informed him, if such bills could be made out, that they could furnish the office with any sum they might require upon a day's notice. The only dithculty then was, how to issue the bills, and, after some consideration, I agreed that the bills should be made payable to me; the result was, that these bills were made out, sometimes one hundred thousand or one hundred and fitty thousand pounds at a time, and I endorsed them and handed them over to Messrs. Goldsmids, first having acknowledged the receipt of the bills to the board by letter. Here the transaction ended, as far as regarded me, and I derived po ad

vantage or emolument, directly or indirectly, in contemplation or otherwise, from this transaction.-Q. It appearing also that bills for a similar purpose, to the amount of three millions three hundred thousand pounds, were drawn in favour of Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny in 1801 and 1802, what circumstances led to the use of the firm of your house in preference to your name, and what advantage did you, or the house to which you belonged, derive from that transaction? 4. The circumstance that led to these bills being made payable to Donaldson and Glenny, was, that as they had considerable dealings with the public, it was conceived that the change might the better con ceal from the public eye the temporary necessity which occasioned the issue of these bills; and neither Alexander Donaldson nor myself received, directly or indirectly, any advantage or emolument whatever, in contemplation or otherwise, from this transaction.

Q. Has any allowance been made, or is any allowance to be made to Messrs. Goldsmids for negotiating such bills? 4. I understand there either has, or will be, some consideration made to Messrs. Goldsmids; but what the quantum is I do not know. [Signed by GEORGE GLENNY, and by THE COMMISSIONERS]

No. IV. Exhibits a detailed enumeration of these bills, specifying their amount, their dates, &c. &c.

No. V. THE EXAMINATION OF WILLIAM FOSTER, ESQUIRE, CHIEF CLERK IN THE OFFICE FOR BILLS AND ACCOUNTS, IN THE NAVY OFFICE; TAKEN UPON OATH, THE 31st MAY, 1804.

Q. How long have you been in your present situation, and what are the duties at tached to it? A. I have been in my present situation since December, 1801; and my duty is to superintend the whole business of the office for bills and accounts.--Q. What is the process of making out bills for stores delivered, or services performed? A. Upon the certificates of the delivery of the stores at the yards being received at the office, they are examined with respect to the prices, to see that they are agreeable to the contracts and warrants, and the computations are checked, and if found correct, a bill of exchange is then made out to the parties, signed by three members of the board, payable at ninety days; the interest on which is added to the sum of the bill; and the nature of the services for which the bills are issued is stated on the bills.-Q. Have there been any bills made out for which neither

stores have been delivered, nor services performed? A. I know of none, but, those made out to Donaldson and Glenny, to

and to Mr. George Glenny.- Q. What was the object of the bills issued to those persons? A. I apprehend as a temporary assistance to government. (a)—Q. What was the nature of the directions you received of marking out such bills, and from whom? A. Papers requiring me at different periods to cause bills to be made out to Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny, to

or Mr. George Glenny, to certain amounts, signed in general by the Comptroller of the Navy singly.-Q. What orders were given to you for making out bills for stores delivered, or services performed? A. I receive no orders; the bills are made out of course on the receipt of the certificate of the delivery of the stores at the yards, if found correct.- Q. To what amount do you apprehend bills to have been made out to the persons whom you have stated?. A. About four millions four hundred thousand pounds, as follows:

To Mr. George Glenny

1,100,000

To Messrs. Donaldson and Glenny 3,200,000 To

100,000 £4,400,000

Q. Between what periods were such bills made out? 4. Between October, 1800 and May, 1802.- Q. Did such bills differ in their form from those issued for stores delivered, or services performed? A. The wording of these bills was "On Account of "sundry Naval Services." The wording of the others, "On Account of the particular Stores, or for the particular Services."—— Q.. What was the nature of the charge or imprest placed against the persons to whom such bills were issued? A. An imprest was charged against for the

amount of the bills issued to him, which was cleared about a week or ten days ago, by an order from the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. There was no imprest charged against the other persons; they were not imprest bills, but regular bills, and consequently no imprest could be charged.-Q. Do you know why the amount of the bills issued to was charged as

an imprest against him, and those issued to the other persons not so charged against them? A. I do not.- -Q. To whom were the bills delivered? A. They were in general sent to Mr. Glenny, or delivered to Mr. Goldsmid.--Q. You have said, that you apprehend the bills were issued as s temporary assistance to government; ia