left out in the new charter; I desire to know if you left them out?-I do not know. Do you know whether any body else left them out? No, I do not. Do you know why they were left out?No, I do not know why they were left out. Then there are some other words which are inserted; these words are inserted in the new charter, "And also to sell, grant, demise, alien, or dispose of the same manors, messuages," &c. Do you know why that power of selling was introduced in the charter, selling the whole estates of the Hospital?--I believe that clause was found in one of the draughts that I had for my guidance; but if your lordships will please to attend to the charter, from the best of my recollection, there is a clause immediately preceding that, which gives the Hospital a power to purchase estates, which I believe they had not by the former commission; it gives them a power to receive devises of manors, messuages, lands, and so on, and immediately, as I think, this clause of which his grace speaks, follows, and it was not, to the best of my memory, then understood, that the clause giving a power to the Hospital to sell the estates, extended any farther than to those they had bought, or such as were devised to them, to the best of my recollection. You mentioned materials that you had for your guidance, be so good as to mention what they were?It is almost impossible for me to do that, who have never seen them since. Where did you take them from?-To the best of my recollection they were taken from the Record-room in Greenwich Hospital. Who gave them to you?-Your lordships will please to understand, that this Record room is under four locks and keys; I have the keeping of one of those keys myself; I do not know who gave them to me, but, from the best of my recollection, I had them from that room. Did you take them yourself, or any body give them to you?-I believe, but I cannot speak certainly to it; I believe that I desired to have them. Did you return them to that place?—I think they are returned, but I cannot speak positively to that point. Did you keep any copies of those materials that served you for your guide?—No, not to my recollection. that you received any directions from any person whatever to make any of those alterations?-I do not know that I received any directions from any person, (except, as I said before) from the directors of the Hospital in writing: I considered myself acting under the directions also of Mr. Eden. Did Mr. Eden give you any directions relative to the alteration that you mentioned?-It is impossible for me to say at this distance of time, but I think not; I do not know. You swear then you do not know, you do not recollect whether any body gave you any directions, or whether it was you or any body else made them?-I believe I stated, that I had received directions from the board of directors, that I considered myself acting under Mr. Eden. But did you receive from the board of directors, or Mr. Eden, any directions to make alterations in the charter?-Not that I recollect. Think a little before you answer the question I am going to ask you, and answer it seriously: I understand that these alterations in the charter were taken by you from certain loose papers that you got out of the Recordroom in Greenwich Hospital; it was so, was it?-I believe I informed your lordships, that I had no line to go by upon that occasion; that I had never drawn a charter before; that I had recourse to such papers as I thought would be useful to me; and with them, the best judgment that I could form upon the occasion, and the commission, were the things by which I was guided. Then in the alterations in the charter, which are not found in the commission, I ask you, if you took those alterations from the old papers that you got out of the Record-room or not?--I cannot undertake to say that I did or did not. If you did not take them from those papers, from whence else could you have them?Upon my oath I do not know. Did Mr. Eden give you any such instructions?-Not that I recollect. Did any body else whatever give you such orders?-Not that I know of. Unless you had the authority of these papers, how came you, without such orders, to take upon you to take the appointment of officers out of the general court, and give it to the board of Admiralty?—I do not know at this time what was the occasion of it; or whether it was intended at all, I do not know. You do not know whether it was intended to be done?I do not know, my lord. You will be so good as to inform their lord Your lordships will be pleased, that this gentleman may come another day, and I beg he may bring those papers with him. If you had no authority from any body to make those material alterations, how came you to take upon yourself to make them?-I cannot un-ships, how, as a solicitor, and a very young dertake to say either that I did or did not make them; I drew the charter to the best of my ability, and it was passed by Mr. Eden, and after that went to the Attorney and Solicitor General, and was finally settled. Do you take upon you to swear that you do not know whether you made any of these material alterations, or who did make them, or man, you could undertake, and could justify to yourself, to make material alterations in a charter, from the original commission-I understood, that I was to draw the charter from such materials as I could get, and from my own judgment about it; I have discharged my conscience about the matter, and I do not know of any directions that were given, any otherwise than those I have stated to your lordships. When you carried the charter, to lay it before the Attorney and Solicitor General, did you then apprize those two great lawyers that you had altered several of the points from the original commission?-I did not, to the best of my recollection, take it to the Attorney and Solicitor General; a Mr. Sibthorpe, who was at that time concerned jointly with me, had a great deal of the transaction of that business with the Attorney and Solicitor General. Do you undertake to say that you did not carry it to the Attorney and Solicitor General? -I do not recollect that perfectly. As your memory is so extremely short, I imagine it is some days since you have been summoned to attend this House, have you ever had the curiosity, knowing that your memory is so extremely defective, as it appears here, to compare the charter with the original commission-I have looked at them. How long ago?--I was looking at them this morning. How long is it ago since you were summoned to attend this House?-I believe about ten, or positively [qu. possibly] eleven days. Did you not think it material, when you had had so great a hand, and absolutely the drawing of this charter, not to refresh so short a memory as yours is, with the particular investigation of that charter, and comparing it with the commission before this morning? No; I have looked at it, but not as comparing it, nor under any idea of giving evidence of it here. Did you ever take notice to any body, that you had made these alterations in this charter?-Not that I recollect. At no time did you ever mention it to any body?—Not that I know of. How long is it since you have been summoned to attend this House?—I think, out ten or eleven days. Have you had any conversation during that time, respecting the business of Greenwich Hospital? I have conversed at several times with various officers of the Hospital. With whom upon this business?-I believe most of the officers; I don't know any one particularly that I have conversed with about it. Have you conversed upon the subject of the charter?-Not that I know of. How long have you been the solicitor to Greenwich Hospital?--I was concerned with Mr. Sibthorpe immediately after my father's death, which was ten years ago. How were you bred? To what business?— An attorney. How long have you been an attorney?-I was an attorney very soon after my father's death. We don't know when your father died?I believe, I explained to your lordships, it was about ten years. How long have you been appointed solicitor to the Hospital?-Almost immediately upon my father's death, which is about ten years ago. Were you an apprentice to any attorney before you was an attorney?—I was clerk to my father. How long?-Not quite five years, but I served the remainder with Mr. Sibthorpe. I only wish to ask the witness; he says that this new charter was laid before the Attorney and Solicitor General, I desire to know whether they made any alterations in it, after it was laid before them?-I believe, that the almost, if not entirely, the only alteration made by the Attorney and Solicitor General, was the clause directing security to be taken. Was the old commission laid before the Attorney and Solicitor General at the same time, with the draught of the new charter ?— I don't know. Who were the Attorney and Solicitor General at that time?-The present Chancellor was Attorney General, and Mr. Wedderburne, Solicitor. So you don't know whether the Attorney or Solicitor General did know there was any variation made between the new charter and the old commission ?--I don't know that any otherwise, than was necessary to constitute a charter; there must be some variation, to be sure. Monday next, and bring those materials with [The witness was ordered to attend on him, which he made use of in drawing up the charter.] Whether you singly drew up the charter, or whether Mr. Sibthorpe was concerned with you in drawing it up?-Mr. Sibthorpe and I, to the best of my recollection, drew it toge ther. He was concerned with you in drawing of it? Yes, he was. I think you say, Sibthorpe and you together drew it?-Yes, I think so. Under the direction of Mr. Eden?—Yes. You recollect that was the case, do you?Yes, perfectly. I suppose, after you had drawn this charter, you delivered it to Mr. Eden for his perusal? -It was laid before Mr. Eden for his perusal. When you laid it before him, did not you ob serve to him, that you had made these essential alterations?-I cannot recollect, whether I or Mr. Sibthorpe laid it before him, Did Mr. Eden make any alterations?—I cannot recollect. Mr. Ibbetson called in again. Mr. Ibb. In the hurry of looking over the minutes at the bar, I did omit one which I should have taken notice of; I did mention to the House, that there had been an application from the general court to parliament, for an act of parliament to incorporate the Hospital, that did not take place; and, I find, upon looking over the minutes, since I withdrew from the bar, that the draught of the charter | his book, no other alteration than the security had been settled by the Attorney and Solicitor clause, that was an addition as it stands upon General, with the addition of the security the books, as recommended to be inserted." clause, was laid before the general court, and [Mr. Ibbetson withdrew, and the House adthat was on the 10th of March, 1774. The journed to Monday.] directors in their Memorial to that general court say, thus: that having laid before the Attorney and Solicitor General, a draught of a charter of incorporation for the Hospital, &c. and having added, according to their recommendation, a clause for the treasurer to give security, the resolution of the general court was, that they approved of the draught of the new charter. Who were present at that time?-Lord Sandwich, Mr. Buller, lord Palmerston, lords of the Admiralty, &c. &c. in the whole fifteen in number. Was the charter read paragraph by paragraph at the general court?-The draught of the charter appears to have been read through; I recollect very well, that the charter itself was not read. You say it appears, that the draught was read through, it may be entered as read, it may appear so upon the books; but were you present at the general court?—I don't recollect that it was not read; and I am very well convinced, in my own mind, that the draught was read, but that the charter itself was not read, any more than sometimes as your lordships' bills are read, just the title of it. Please to recollect, and will you take upon you to say that it was read?-I think I can venture to say it, but I will not say it positively, but I have no reason to think that it was not read. Do you take upon you to say positively that it was or was not?-I believe it was read, I know nothing to the contrary. Whether it was not one of the points of business, upon which they met to consider of this draught? It was a part of the business of the day, it came in among other business. Was this draught of the charter, to the best of your knowledge, read to the general court? -To the best of my knowledge and belief, certainly it was read. Were any of these alterations between the commission and charter, pointed out to the general court at that time?-No, there was nothing pointed out in it, that I recollect. Was the commission produced at that court, and read?—No, it was not, nor any comparison made between them. Did no member there take notice of any alteration between one and the other?-Not that I recollect; and I cannot see how they could, unless they had had them both before them? How soon did you observe, or were you acquainted with the alterations in the charter? -I never knew any thing of the alterations myself in the charter; I never compared it with the commission; I concluded it was properly settled, having gone through such hands; till Mr. Baillie pointed them out in Mr. Everest, the Solicitor, called in. Have you brought those papers that were ordered? I have. [Produces some Papers.] What are these papers?--The several draughts and copies of charters, that I have been able to collect since last Friday. That you have been able to collect?--Yes. When were those draughts and papers made out? The first was drawn by myself; was corrected, as I find afterwards, by Mr. Sibthorpe, who was then joint solicitor of the Hospital with me; a copy was made from that, and laid before Mr. Eden, and corrected by him after that; three copies were made, one for the Attorney General, one for the Solicitor General, and another for Mr. Eden. Are those all the papers that you have produced? I was going on, if the Committee will give me leave: the Attorney and Solicitor General advised, by an opinion in writing at the end of one of them, that a clause should be added for the treasurer to give security; this was laid before the board of directors, and they ordered the clause to be drawn; accordingly a copy was then made for the board, with the clause inserted; I find, by the minutes of the board, that it was then laid before the board, and they made alterations in it; from thence another copy was made for the general court, and by them finally approved. all. Are these all the papers?—I have not them Are those that you have been describing all the papers you have brought with you?—I will read their titles. Are they, or are they not, all you have brought with you?—I have not brought all I have been describing, because I could not find them all; what I have brought is the first draught which I drew myself, and which was corrected by Mr. Sibthorpe; that was afterwards corrected by Mr. Éden, and then the third draught was corrected by the Attorney and Solicitor General, and Mr. Eden. Have you any papers but what you have produced?-None, but what I have produced. Have you searched into the record-room, and made any enquiry concerning these old papers and draughts you spoke of the other day?-I have been into the record-room and searched there; I found that the papers were not there, but in my possession, and I have now delivered them to your lordships. Were there any other alterations ever made in the draught of the charter, but those you have mentioned ?--No. Did you ever converse with any body else, but those that you have named, upon the drawing of the charter, to [qu. with] my lord Sandwich, or any of the lords of the Admiralty?-No. Nor receive any message upon the subject | but the answer was, you had better go to the from any body?--None. usual form for it through the crown officers; we don't wish it agitated here. The business of the charter then went on, and several meet Was Mr. Ibbetson concerned in drawing up that charter?-Not by any means. What was the expence of the charter?-Iings were had about it; I believe about this have not taken that out. Do you know how much you have received upon that account?-Upon account of the charter? Upon account of the expence of passing it? ----I am not prepared at present to answer that question, but I believe it was upwards of a thousand pounds: if the House have any wish to go into that, I will, upon another day, produce all the papers I can respecting that. When did you propose to return those papers that belonged to the record-room?-I had not fixed any time in my own mind about it; I really thought they were returned; it has been a long time since I have seen any thing time, till in the month of March, 1772, that I then gave instructions to the solicitors of the Hospital, Mr. Sibthorpe and Mr. Everest; Mr. Sibthorpe, very eminent in his profession there, and a man we. had full confidence in; Mr. Everest was then a very young man; I directed them to prepare a draught for us to look at. They prepared a draught upon the ground of the Foundling Hospital's charter and the commission, taking out as much of the commission as they thought applied for the benefit of the Hospital; when it came to be put into the charter, I did not know who prepared it, but I now understand Mr. Everest did; Mr. Sibthorpe corrected it, and brought it so corrected to me. This don't carry me, I believe, later down than the month of March; I made some corrections, which I understand are now before the House, and which may be seen; in making those corrections, I should not have thought it necessary to have retained a single syllable of the commission, if I could have suggested better words; I believe, howIs that part contained in that old paper, ever, it so happened, that in general the exwhich gives authority to the lords of the Ad-pressions of the old commission are retained, miralty to sell the Hospital land?—I don't know. of them. Have you compared any of those old papers since you were here on Friday with the present charter, to see whether the alterations in this new charter are contained in these old papers?-Some of them are in the old draught of a charter in George the 2nd's time, which I have delivered to your lordships. That charter never passed, did it?-No. [Mr. Everest withdrew.] The Auditor, Mr. Eden, called in. Please to give the Committee an account of what you know relative to the passing the new charter of Greenwich Hospital?-In the beginning of the year 1772, Mr. Ellis, the steward of the Hospital, failed for a considerable sum of money, I believe about 3,500l.; I was at that time at the bar, and acted as counsel for the Hospital; it was my duty to settle the form of recovering this money; I found, on looking into the matter, that it was very difficult to direct a mode of prosecution; and I also found, that if any such mode could be carried on, there were no means of recovering, in case Mr. Ellis's circumstances should be found insolvent; for there had been no security given by him, or indeed any other person, entrusted with the money of the Hospital: it was my duty to represent this to the board of directors; and I pointed out to them, that they were directed under the commis sion, under which we acted, to have a charter. I knew that under that charter it would be easy to guard against any such inconvenience in future. The board upon this directed that the matter should be considered, I believe, by myself, and the then Attorney and Solicitor General. It was our first wish of all, I believe, to have had this charter passed in parliament. It was moved in parliament, * Now [a. d. 1814.] Lord Auckland. as far as they were proper to be retained. There were several other things occurred in settling that charter, which seemed material to be attended to for the benefit of the Hospital. Hitherto we had a considerable establishment for the benefit of the boys whe were sons of seamen. That establishment had not been regularly put under the establishment of the Hospital'; it arose from, and was supported by, some contingent sums. The boys go off in three years tolerably completed in their education. This was grown so considerable an establishment, that it seemed material to subject that to a general court, and the general form that goes through the rest of the regular business that is inserted in the charter, not in the former commission; so all the security clauses of those that have the Hospital money pass through their hands, were submitted for the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General, and they gave their opinion that it was necessary to insert such a clause: that is a considerable benefit to the Hospital, as at all times there is at least 50,000l. or 60,000l. in circulation, for which the Hospital before had no security, and for which it has now a full security. There were some provisions put into the charter about the power of altering and disposing of the Hospital's lands, which I hear has drawn some attention. As far as I can recollect of the matter, I apprehend that no such power of aliening or disposing of any thing is given by these words: I conceive them to be mere words of form, so far as relates to any possibility of impairing the property of the Hospi tal: I conceive that every purchaser takes, and, at this instant, if applied to any purposes, except the purposes of the charity, they are punishable. I don't know whether I have answered the noble lord's question, but I don't recollect any thing more at present. subject to that trust, and at his own peril; so far as those words give a power of purchasing, I don't know, I rather apprehend they do not; for in cases subsequent, I understand it has been found necessary to have special licences from the crown to make those purchases; and in regard to exchanges, it happened two years ago, when there was an exchange, and then it was found necessary to pass an act for that purpose, which act actually passed. I have not looked into the thing, because the House did not give me notice that I was to be summoned here; I heard it by accident; I have not had much time to look into it; but, I believe, that upon looking into the acts, which vest the Derwentwater estates in the Hospital, it will be found, that no charter of the king's alone can turn and affect that, exclusive of the nature of the trust, by which any purchaser might be subject to the trust; I do not at this moment recollect any other variations in the charter. There is an omission, which has been taken notice of: the general courts recommending the persons proper to be admitted; the words that were in the old commission were, I believe, pretty nearly these, that the commissioners, meaning the general court, shall recommend to the board of Admiralty, to appoint officers necessary for the Hospital. Now I can only suppose what I did then think; by what I think now upon it, it can only have one of two meanings, either that I must have thought at that time, that the commissioners were meant to recommend the persons, so that they must be appointed; in which case I should have had no hesitation of striking it out, because I am clearly of opinion, it is a much better trust to be in the hands of the board of Admiralty, who must know the merits of seamen who have served, than in the hands of persons very respectable in life, but not seamen. I understand this is an old clause, from the first institution of the Hospital; and I conceive that the words meant, that the commissioners should recommend all officers necessary to be adpointed; so many captains, so many lieutenants, and so on; but that the board of Admiralty are to name the particular captains and lieutenants. There is a clause too, giving the Admiralty power to displace. Now, as far as that addition goes, I believe, it restrains the power of the Admiralty: the Admiralty used to appoint, and do now, indeed, till further order; what I must have thought was this, that this is rather a hard tenure upon an old officer in the Hospital, that he should hold it during the will of the board of Admiralty, whatever his behaviour was; therefore, I inserted, I think, they should have power to displace for misbehaviour. There were some other words, that the revenue of the Hospital should be applied to the purposes of the charity, and no other purposes whatever; I don't recollect (it will appear) whether I scratched out the words; if I did, I am not ashamed of it, because they are words that mean nothing; Whether the committee is to understand from what you have said, that these several alterations in the charter were made by yourself?-Upon my word that is a very hard question to answer; I have not seen the paper, except casting my eyes upon them in the bundle; I have not seen them to examine them, therefore I cannot tell; at the distance of seven years, it is impossible for me to know. If any body will take the trouble to examine them, my hand-writing is very easy to be seen, whether I altered them or no; I apprehend I am responsible for every word that is in this charter. I don't mean whether you are answerable for it or not; but I want to know the fact, whether you made the alterations or not; if you wish to satisfy yourself, by looking into the draught that is laid before the House, that may easily be handed up to you, to refresh your memory?--If you will please to let me see the draught, I will tell your lordships. (The draught is handed to Mr. Eden.) Mr. Eden. I certainly did not alter every thing, because I see in the Attorney General's brief, there are some passages that are altered. Please to look at the alterations, one by one, and acquaint the committee of what you have altered?-In my brief, there does not happen to be one alteration, which I am surprised at; but, I believe, the reason was, I had quitted the bar before it was brought to me. Then, from thence, are we to understand, that none of the alterations were made by you?-I am afraid to say that, because the solicitor's having free access to me, many things that may appear to be altered, might be by their asking, and my suggesting alterations: I should mention, that there appears to be a great delay in this business; it was stated in the beginning of the year 1772, and was not completed till the end of the year 1775; in the course of that time it was revised very repeatedly by different persons; and was, I believe, a long time before the Attorney and Solicitor General; they had too much business to give it out of their hands, but at last it did come, though I have sent for their report upon it; it was brought to me from the secretary of state's office, and I have it here, if the House wish to see it. (It is handed up to the table.) There were some other persons consulted in this charter, I believe; who were these persons? I understood you to say, it was laid before the Attorney and Solicitor General, and some other persons?-I am misunderstood, I am afraid; I don't recollect any other persons, except Mr. Sibthorpe, the solicitor of the Hospital; I did not mean to say so. |