Parliamentary Debates During the Sixth Session of the Fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Twenty-first, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Seventh Day of January, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Twelve, in the Fiftysecond Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, March 17, 1812. PETITION FROM THE FRAME WORK KNITTERS OF LEICESTER AGAINST THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.] Mr. Samuel Smith presented a Petition from the Frame Work Knitters of Leicester, praying for the Repeal of the Orders in Council, in as far as regarded America, and also against the renewal of the East India Company's charter. The hon. member assured the House, that the present Petitioners had uniformly conducted themselves in the most orderly and becoming manner, and now came to the House, praying that the final stab might not, by a war with America, be a ruin to their manufactures. The present Petition was signed by 11,000 persons. Mr. Babington concurred in bearing testimony to the temperate and orderly conduct of the manufacturers in Leicestershire, who cast their eyes only to that House for relief. They now trusted to the wisdom of that House to avert from them, in the words of their Petition, the greatest of all calamities, starvation in a land of plenty. The Petition was then read, setting forth "That the Petitioners feel themselves sorely aggrieved on account of the sad depression in their trade: and that it most clearly appears to them that the Orders in Council, as they relate to America, are the cause of this falling off of our com(VOL. XXII.) merce; and that the Petitioners have been kept at restricted employ by the various speculations which have been carried on by their employers, in the hope that the Orders in Council would be repealed, and that ultimately a good understanding might be brought about between this country and America; and that, from this, it is clear that the measure prayed for is the last hope of the Petitioners; and, though they would not presume to dictate to the House, yet they cannot but consider America as placed by the belligerents in a most critical situation, and, as a war with one of the contending powers may be the result, a repeal of the Orders would, in fact, be a stumbling-block to France, and America would probably open her ports to our vessels, and throw herself on our protection; and that the Petitioners see with much concern the charter of the East India Company about to be renewed, seeing they engross the whole of the trade to the Eastern seas, without any advantage to the country, but only to themselves; and praying the House to take their Petition into early and serious consideration, and to adopt such measures thereon as to them shall seem meet." Ordered to lie upon the table. PETITION FROM BELFAST RESPECTING COIN.] Lord Castlereagh presented a Petition from the inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Belfast, setting forth, (B) "That the Petitioners have suffered, and | nience arose from the present practice in continue to suffer, much inconvenience Ireland. and expence in their dealings, arising The Petition was then brought up and from the excessive price and scarcity of read, and was ordered to lie on the table. guineas and praying, that they may be put on the same footing with Great BriGOLD COIN AND Chancellor of the ExBANK NOTE AMENDtain, in any future Bill which may be MENT BILL.] The Chancellor of the Exintroduced into parliament respecting chequer rose for the purpose of moving, payments in specie." The noble lord that the act of last session, making Bank said, that when the Bill passed last ses-Notes a legal tender, in certain cases, be sion, he had opposed its being then ex-contined under certain amendments, and tended to Ireland, because there were scarcely any Irish members at that time in attendance at the House; and it would not have been right to pass an act of that momentous importance, and to make it binding on Ireland, in the absence of almost all its representatives. Since that time, however, guineas had become so scarce there, that they could not be procured under 4s. 6d. and 5s. premium, making an increase of 25 per cent. besides the time lost, and trouble acquired by those who had absolute occasion for them. He was glad to understand that his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) intended in the Bill which he was this night to move for leave to bring in, to continue the act of last session, to extend the provisions of it to Ireland; but he still thought he was only fulfilling his duty in bringing forward this Petition, which had been transmitted to him from an apprehension that such was not to be the case. The high premium for guineas had pressed very hard on such tenants as were obliged to pay in gold, by rendering it difficult to procure the cash for their rents in time. Indeed, under such circumstances, the country could not have long carried on any branch of business, had it not been for the humanity and liberal sentiments of the greatest part of the landlords. But there were still some exceptions, which occasioned individual oppression, and it was the object of the Petition to remove such. Mr. Wellesley Pole agreed that there would be great injustice, if the enactments of the Bill, which had been passed as applicable to England, during the last year, were not now extended to Ireland. He was happy, therefore, that his right hon. friend, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had determined to extend the provisions of the Bill which he was about to move for leave to bring in, to Ireland, thereby communicating the same advantages to one part of the empire as to the other. Mr. Stewart allowed, that great inconve that its provisions be extended to Ireland. It was not necessary, he observed, in this stage of the proceeding, to make many observations, but looking back to the discussion that took place last session when he introduced a similar measure, he was aware that the Bill (if the House permitted him to bring it in), would not pass without occasioning very considerable discussions. He would shortly state the course which he would propose the House to adopt on the present occasion. He had no intention whatever of hurrying the Bill through the House, as many gentlemen members for Ireland were at present necessarily engaged in that kingdom, and from the nature of their engagements at the different assizes would not be enabled to attend the discussions for some time; he should therefore propose to read the Bill a first and second time before the holidays, to have it printed, and then to ap point some day after the recess for the commitment of it, in order that gentlemen from Ireland might be present at the discussion of the various provisions. He would now barely state the nature of the circumstances which induced him to recommend the continuance of the measure. He did not intend to make any other alteration in the provisions, further than extending the operation of the Bill to Ireland, and providing that payments of Bank notes into court, out of court, and in process of law, should be deemed legal pay ments. Since the passing of the last Bill, he had ascertained that in the courts of King's bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer, there had been but three actions brought on the question of legality of tender. One was an action of replevin tried before lord Ellenborough, where a tender in Bank notes was proved; but in the present state of the law that was deemed not a sufficient answer to the action. The other was an action of my lord King against one of his tenants for the small sum of 451. the object of which was evidently merely to try the question: the expressing his astonishment at the very flippant manner in which the right hon. gentleman had introduced and argued the present motion, when the question was actually neither more nor less than that of money was paid into court and the proceedings were stayed, the noble lord having previously given notice that he would not receive notes as legal tender. The other was also an action for a small sum which was paid into court, and no subse-making bank-notes a legal tender. The quent proceedings took place. These language of the right hon. gentleman when were the only cases which he had been the Bill was originally brought forward, able to find upon record. According to towards the close of last session, and the provisions of the Bill, it did not occa on the spur of a pretended occasion, was sion any impediment to prosecutions if the very different. He then said it was merely public had been inclined to quarrel with an experiment called for to meet a partiit, therefore he was justified in saying that cular exigency, and it was generally unthere was no great disposition to resist the derstood that the Bill was not intended to measure, nor did the public feel much op- be renewed, until at least it had been duly pression from it, because if they felt ag- examined in all its various bearings. Yet grieved, actions in many instances would within nine days before the expiration of have been brought. The circumstance that Bill, the right hon. gentleman came of so few being instituted, shewed that the down to propose not only its revival but public were not anxious to procure mo- an additional provision, which it was ob ney in payment of their demands. Hevious, would have exactly the same effect was, of course, confirmed in the opinion as making Bank-notes a legal tender. he had expressed when the matter was Besides this, there were other circumlast before the House, that hostility to the stances that had passed this night, which measure was not a sentiment generally ought, in his opinion, to determine the prevalent in the country, and that there House to pause before they gave leave to were but few who would be inclined to bring in this Bill. The noble lord oppofollow the example of the noble lord site (Castlereagh) had last year objected (King). It might be said, if the evil was particularly to the extending of this Bill of so very limited an extent, there was no to Ireland, because bargains in the north need of a remedy. In this he could not of that country being made for payment concur; for if men once found that they in gold, it would have the effect of decould, by oppression against their neigh-frauding the creditors. It would consebours, promote their own advantage, there quently be well to consider whether the were, he was afraid, many who, if not re- present petitioners from Belfast, who comstrained by law, would not scruple to do plained of a loss of 25 per cent. on the pay. so; but the rarity of the attempt to comments in gold, were debtors or creditorsmit an evil afforded consolation when a re-tenants or landlords? Whether they meant medy was sought to be provided against it: to relieve themselves from their obligaand the present measure was only giving tions by a cheaper mode of payment, or security to that species of payment which whether they were impelled by genethe great body of the people were evidently rosity to relieve those who were indebted willing to receive. With these few observa- to them? It seemed that all contracts for tions he should content himself, and move, lands in Ireland had been made for pay"That leave be given to bring in a Bill ment of the rent in gold; and now, if to continue and amend an act of the last these petitioners were tenants, it would session of parliament, for making more shew clearly they were desirous to pay in effectual provision for preventing the cur- a medium of less value than gold. He rent gold coin of the realm from being thought the House would be wary how paid or accepted for a greater value than they admitted this: if the contract was the current value of such coin, for pre-made expressly for a gold payment, which venting any note or bill of the governor and company of the Bank of England from being received for any smaller sum than the sum therein specified, and for staying proceedings upon a distress by tender of such notes, and to extend the same to Ireland." Lord Folkestone said he was unable, even in that early stage of the business, to avoid had, as he was informed, long been the custom in Ireland, forcing the party who had a right in virtue of his contract to receive gold only, to accept of paper in its stead, would be highly unjust, and was a good argument against the Bill being extended. One of the main reasons adduced in favour of the Bill of last session was, the increased and increasing price of gold. Now if he was rightly informed, gold was diminishing in price, and therefore the attempt to continue the Bill only shewed that ministers were determined to have such a Bill in all cases, and at any rate. Though the price of gold was now actually diminished, it was however by no means in consequence of the Bill of last session, because gold rose in price for some months after it passed, and the greatest distress was experienced in the western parts of England, particularly for want of silver to carry on the common concerns of trade; and in most towns the inhabitants were under the necessity of issuing out tokens of their own, to avoid a total stagnation of the most ordinary business. Another reason against renewing the Bill, was, that it had failed in one of its principal objects, viz. that of preventing more than one-and-twenty-shillings being given for a guinea. The Bill only provided against giving more than a Banknote and a shilling for a guinea; but by changing the Bank of England for country bank-notes, you might add as many shillings to those as you pleased, and could not be hurt for it; so that it was daily and hourly evaded with impunity. As a proof of this, there had only one conviction taken place since passing the Act, and that was of a man seduced into the transaction by a police-officer sent on purpose to trepan him into the fact. The provisions of the Act had not been accomplished, nor would be accomplished: and he hoped, therefore, the House would exercise its discretion, before it gave a sanction to the renewal of such a Bill. As to the new clause proposed by the right hon. gentleman, and which went not only materially to alter the Bill, but also to substitute a fictitious circulating medium, as a legal tender for payment, in lieu of the standard coin of the realm, he conjured the House to pause before they consented to entertain a proposition so ruinous to the credit and to the vital interests of the country. Lord Castlereagh was not disposed at present to go into any arguments on the Bill, as frequent opportunities would hereafter occur for the discussion of its merits. He should only notice that the noble lord seemed to adhere to the opinions entertained by him last session, and to press his opposition before the Bill was brought in. He wished to correct him in two points, in which he appeared to be under misap prehension with respect to what he (lord C.) and his right hon. friend had stated. The reason which he had for not extending the measure to Ireland last session, was on account of the absence of many Irish members, and not from any view that it would not be desirable for that country. He had stated that it was his opinion that the circumstances of Ireland, in a certain degree, varied from those of England, so as to exclude at that time its introduction. As to the supposed pledge of his right hon. friend, he appre hended, that he had stated quite the reverse of what the noble lord had imputed to him; for his right hon. friend had stated, that if nothing short of making Bank notes a legal tender would serve to correct the evil, a remedy to that extent must be applied. He thought, that so long as the Bank of England were prohi bited by law from paying their notes in gold, the legislature owed it to the subject to protect him against any demands which were not under these circumstances equitable; because, by not affording that protection, great injustice might be done to the subjects of the realm. In that opinion his right hon. friend had coincided. With respect to the practice in Belfast and its vicinity, the noble lord was misinformed, for the practice was the reverse of what he had stated; contracts were made there to pay in pounds sterling, and not in gold. Guineas had ceased to be the circulating medium, and therefore the subject could not pay his debts in gold; and ought to be protected by law from being called upon to do that which it was totally out of his power to effect. Lord Folkestone explained, that he had a clear recollection on both the points, in which the noble lord had supposed him to be in error. Mr. Tierney would not oppose the motion for leave to bring in the Bill, but observed that it was very evident from the speech of the right hon. gentleman himself, that the country was already in the situation which had been predicted last session, namely, in a situation of moving from bad to worse. He asked in what respect did this measure fall short of making Bank notes a legal tender? The answer was, that they were to be legal tenders only in a court of justice. But what law was there which could compel any man to part with his goods or property contrary to his inclination? The fact was, that this Bill went to affect immediately all interests and every class of society. If be every man of property pause before he any longer placed his confidence in parliament, which was now about to sanction a measure that must necessarily prove a mortal blow to the credit of the Bank itself. The Bank had now no other interest than the interests of their own monopoly to attend to. The time once was when their corporate interests went hand in interests of the country; but they had now become distinct and separate, and no other security remained for the public but the forbearance of the Bank. He meant no reflection whatever on the individual characters of the directors-with many of them he had lived in habits of personal confidence; for some of whom he had the highest personal esteem. But as a corporate body their conduct had no claim on his respect-they had in that capacity deserved no confidence, except the confidence of the right hon. gentleman, whom they were always prepared to accommodate. He knew of nothing that they had done for the promotion of the public interests, but he knew of much for the gratification of their own thirst and eagerness of gain. It was now incumbent on them were to buy 1,000l. worth of plate, would he not be perfectly secure in paying for the commodity in Bank notes? If the silversmith brought an action in a court of law, the payment into court of 1,000l. in Bank notes would be an acquittal of the defendant. And how then could this Bill be said not to go the full length of making these notes a legal tender? He implored the House to consider well this subject be-hand with the commercial and financial fore they came to a decision upon it. Unless he could himself perceive an altered disposition in the House, he should deem all endeavour at argument superfluous and unnecessary, for, after the protracted and lucid discussion which the measure of last session had undergone, after the able report which had been presented by the committee on the subject, nothing could be expected from opposition but obloquy, and the man who stood forward against the Bill would be accused of a wish to subvert public credit. At the same time, he had that opinion of the right hon. gentleman's good sense as to believe, that he had experienced no small degree of pain in coming to a resolution to submit such a proposition to the House. He knew indeed that the right hon. gentleman dared not meddle with the Bank. He knew that the go-to shew what they had hitherto pertinavernment had proceeded so far, that the Bank had become its masters, and the masters of the finance of the country.-It remained therefore for that House to resume its character and exercise its duties, by shewing to the Bank that at least parliament was above them, and was determined to protect the credit of the country. He could not see in what manner it would fall short of a direct fraud, to compel the subject to take in payment for goods of real value a paper, the value of which it was impossible for him to ascertain. There had been much talk of the French assignats, but in one point of view their forced circulation was less atrocious than that of Bank-notes, inasmuch as the assignats were grounded on some sort of pledged security, on national domains, the property of the state. [Here the Chancellor of the Exchequer smiled. J-The right hon. gentleman smiled at his venturing to contrast the enormous issues of the French government with those of the Bank of England; but he was prepared to contend that the French did at least seek to save appearances, which was more than the right hon. gentleman thought it worth his care to do. This new manifestation of his views and intentions, ought to make ciously concealed he meant the real amount of their profits since the suspension of cash payments. As soon as the immediate question should be disposed of, he would take the liberty of moving for this account, as well as for a committee to inquire into the state of the affairs of the Bank. This might serve to shew that there were some who did not shrink from doing their duty on this occasion, and who wished to warn the House upon the new and perilous crisis to which they were arriving. He would at least not be one of those to lead the people of this country ad ignotum per ignota to a situation in which the establishment of a legal tender would leave no other security than the gold and silver in the actual possession of the Bank. He did not mean to say that for every note that was issued a corresponding sum should be kept in its coffers, but when he saw the directors and the right hon. gen tleman in league together to give a forced currency to Bank notes, he had a right to satisfy himself about the intrinsic value of those notes. He recollected that one of the governors of the Bank had last session represented himself as entertaining considerable objections to the measure of a legal tender, and he should be now |