489] and were voluntarily rushing forward to save their common country and the empire, by declaring their readiness to renounce a monstrous monopoly, and their anxious wish to secure and enhance all their blessings, by sharing them with their country men. Now, when the Protestants themselves presented the olive branch, and were for healing those wounds which a wicked policy had studiously inflicted, there were not wanting those who would prevent the accomplishment of this great and good work; and in the face of the evidence afforded by the Petition, would anxiously conceal from the parliament and the throne, the actual state of the public mind in Ireland. I will not undertake to say the exact proportion of Protestant property, represented by the signatures to this Petition; much less shall I venture to declare how particular Protestant individuals, or some Protestant districts still feel on this great question; but this I may and do assert in the most unqualified manner, that a complete change of sentiment among the Protestants, favourable to the Roman Catholic claims, has happily taken place, particularly since the Union: nor is it too much to assert, that the Protestants of Ireland are now generally friendly to that measure; nay, even anxious for its speedy accomplishment. When the infatuated, determined, hostility of the present administration to this question is considered, there cannot be a doubt, that had ministers felt there existed generally in Ireland, or in any part of that country, a hostile anti-catholic feeling, they would have done any thing in their power to have drawn forth a declaration of such sentiment: not having made the attempt proves their conviction that any such would have been vain; that is, it proves that they are well assured, that the Protestant feeling is now friendly, not hostile, to the Catholic cause. Gentlemen seem sorely vexed and displeased, that the member for Derry should have expressed pleasure and satisfaction, when presenting this Petition; that he should have exulted in the existence of such a document, and have ventured to congratulate his country, that at length every class and sect appeared disposed to make common cause for Irish interestthat all internal feuds were about to cease -that the infernal fume of divide et impera' could no longer be played with success, where for centuries a machiave lean short-sighted wicked policy had It had been argued as if a defiance to collect counter Petitions had claims of the Catholics cannot be withheld; they will do wisely to consider this, and before it be too late, to conciliate those, whom they cannot much longer insult and oppress with impunity. The Petition now presented is offered to the House of Commons as expressive of the favourable opinion of the Protestants of Ireland on the subject of the Catholic claims, as far forth as that sense has been collected or declared. It is the first general appeal to parliament from this body, in approval of those claims, and there is no counter Petition. These are facts incontrovertible, which cannot be too often repeated, too strongly, too confidently relied upon. Sir George Hill.—I did not assert that a challenge had been thrown out to the Protestants. With respect to the observations of the hon. gentleman, I can assure him that I shall always express my sentiments, whether he liked them or not; and further, that I will controvert any observation of the hon. gentleman, when I feel it necessary to do so. The Petition was then brought up, and on the question being put that it should lie on the table, Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, I am indifferent to which of the strange and contradictory accusations made by the learned doctor he adheres, because they are equally and totally unfounded. He has stated at one moment" that the Petition was carried about in an indecent canvas for signatures;" and in the next," that it was concealed in a dark room where no one could either read its contents or see the names signed to it." The absurdity of these inconsistent charges is a sufficient refutation of them. The substance of the Petition and the place where it lay, were advertised in all the newspapers; and as fast as names were obtained, they were copied in large characters and hung up in the room for public inspection. Indeed when the conductors of the Petition reckoned much on the influence of the great names signed to it, and which, on the very first instance, comprehended many of the highest in rank, in property, and in character, it was too preposterous to suppose that they had, as the learned doctor charged, concealed such signatures. But, to settle the point, I can inform the learned doctor that I have in my possession a printed list of the first two thousand signatures which had been circulated, and that the entire of the names will be speedily published; and on that publication, I challenge an investigation in proof of what I have already stated, that the Petition has been signed by a majority of the landed and commercial Protestant property of Ireland: but on what authority did the learned doctor and his adherents make their denials to the respectability of names which the learned doctor himself declared he never had seen. If not on his own knowledge, he was merely the echo of that ribaldry and vulgar abuse with which the hired press of the Irish government had impotently sought to suppress or impede the noble expression of Protestant liberality. The learned doctor has also, with equal accuracy, denied that the signatures from the North of Ireland are numerous and respectable: he states, " that with the exception of some misguided men in the county of Down, no person of any wealth had signed it." Is the majority of the commercial body of Belfast and Newry deserving of that description ? That class of men whose capital and spirit gives life to all the industry of the great manufacturing district, the North of Ireland? Is the commercial body of Dublin, of Waterford, and of Limerick, nothing in the scale of Irish property? Will the learned doctor, in the hearing of those who know Ireland, call such classes « an insignificant portion of the wealth of Ireland." I therefore again assert, without the possibility of being refuted, that the majority of the landed and commercial Protestant property of Ireland is subscrib But, for the purpose of affording an express contradiction to what has been so confidently asserted by the learned doctor, I shall state the mode in which the Petition was conducted. The persons with whom the Petition originated, thought it right, confident as they were in the wisdom and justice of their cause, to appeal to the judgment of the Protestants in the most calm and deliberate manner. For that purpose, county and aggregate meetings were discouraged, to avoid any agitation of the public mind; and instead of a canvas for signatures, the Petition was placed in a room in the commercial buildings of Dublin, the central spot for mer-ed to that Petition, cantile business, and the most accessible Dr. Duigenan.-I maintain that the Pesituation in the city. tition was smuggled about in a clandestine The Petition was then read; setting forth, "That the petitioners do most humbly petition the House in favour of their brethren and fellow subjects, the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, who apply to parliament to be admitted to the privileges and franchises of the constitution; and that the petitioners, their Protestant brethren, do consider such application to be just, and they do most manner. I know instances where persons who went to see it were asked first of all, if they meant to sign it? And if they declined saying whether they would or not, they were refused the perusal of it. When the names were printed, they would then know whether they did represent what they were asserted to do; but I am certain that there were many Protestants of the first eminence who reprobate Catholic Emancipation. With regard to the Protestant Petition, I know that vari-heartily join the Catholics in this their ous arts were used to obtain signatures: many shop-keepers in Dublin, whose subsistence depended upon their trade, were threatened with a general combination to ruin them, if they did not sign it. I know this could be proved.-I could mention several counties where the Petition was rejected with disdain by the grand juries; and therefore I have grounds for saying that it does not contain the majority of the commercial property of Ireland. I will mention an instance of a dissenting minister in the country, who signed the Petition, who was hunted out of his church by his congregation, and reproached with the opprobrious name of another Judas. Mr. Craig. I do believe that three fourths of the Protestants of Belfast are favourable to Catholic claims. As I represent a Northern city, (Carrickfergus) I know that several signatures could have been obtained, if the necessary form of a petition had been prepared; and the member for Belfast is a subscriber to the Petition. Mr. Robert La Touche.-The right hon. doctor alluded to me and my family, as having been particularly concerned in promoting this Petition, and as if the Petition had succeded only by the agency of some of my connections. Certainly, Sir, the head of my family has signed his name first to the Petition, and although formerly in the separate state of Ireland, he was hostile to the Catholic claims, he has changed his opinion with the change of circumstances, and very much to his honour, has candidly avowed that change. He is totally unfounded in supposing that this Petition has been produced by any such agency or management. It has been most respectably signed, by persons of the utmost independence and above any influence. Colonel Vereker said, that a great proportion of the Protestants of Limerick was not favourable to Catholic Emancipation. loyal and reasonable request, and, convinced of its policy as well as its justice, they do most zealously implore the House to comply with the prayer of the said Petition, and to relieve the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities." Ordered to lie upon the table. PETITION OF THE ROMAN CAtholics of WATERFORD.] Sir John Newport. I have the honour of presenting to the House the Petition of the Roman Catholics of the county and city of Waterford, from a very numerous, opulent, and respectable body of his Majesty's subjects, praying to be restored to the full participation in the privileges of the constitution with their Protestant fellow subjects. Possessed of large landed and monied property, feeling their best interests intimately connected with the welfare of the state, they claim from the justice of this House a candid and dispassionate consideration of their Petition. They pray that at a crisis of unexampled danger to the empire, their efforts in its defence may not be impeded by unjust restrictions; that their tried loyalty may not be sullied by unmerited degradation; that no bar of separation may remain to alienate them from their native country, but that sharing in her dangers, they may share in her honours also. I have peculiar pleasure in presenting this Petition, as I am enabled here to disprove, both from the magnitude of property, and the nature of its tenure, the unwarrantable assertions which have been hazarded in this House by a right hon. and learned civilian, as to the intentions entertained by the Roman Catholics of Ireland. I know that 200,000l. have been vested by some of the petitioners, within these ten years past, in the purchase of landed property, principally on those very titles which the learned doctor has accused them with a wish to subvert. It is impossible to furnish a more complete refutation of the learned doctor's assertions than the petitioners have done, supplying by their practice the most unanswerable commentary upon the monstrous theoretical opinions with which he has so often attempted to mislead this House. Mr. Pole Carew called the right hon. baronet to order, conceiving it to be irregular to allude to former discussions. Sir J. Newport.-I contend that I have not been out of order, as the right hon. doctor had published his speech, and sent it into general circulation, which made it public property, and of course subject to comment; especially as the Catholics of Ireland generally, and my constituents in particular, most justly complained of the unfounded, calumnious assertions contained in that publication. Dr. Duigenan.-In any thing I said against the Roman Catholics of Ireland in any former debate, I said against the whole body, and not against those of Waterford, or any other corner of Ireland; therefore I cannot see why the right hon. baronet should have made any allusion to me. He reminds me of Harlequin in the pantomime, building up a castle of paste. board that he might knock it down with his wand of lath; besides, it would have been more proper if the hon. gentleman reserved the eloquence of which we hear so much every night, when he shall have plenty of opportunities to answer my opinions about the Roman Catholic sect. The Petition of the Catholics of the county and city of Waterford was then brought up, presented, read, and ordered to lie on the table. It was the same as the General Petition of the Catholics of Ireland. GOLD COIN AND BANK NOTE AMENDMENT BILL.] Mr. Wharton having appeared at the bar with the report of this Bill, the question being put for its being brought up, Mr. Pole Carew expressed his total disapprobation of the principle of the Bill, inasmuch as it would create an inducement to give more for coin than its nominal or legal value, thereby creating a crime which could not be prevented by any legislative act. Sir Thomas Turton contended, that if this Bill passed into a law, it would com. pletely do away the sacred contracts between landlords and tenants. He could see no necessity whatever for such a mea sure, and until some necessity was shewn, he could by no means give his vote in its favour. The House had heard from a noble lord (Castlereagh) that the Bill would be of considerable importance, and was in truth much wanted in the north of Ireland. He did not, however, feel disposed to take the noble lord's ipse dixit, and should therefore wait for better evidence of the fact, before he could give it implicit credence. A committee ought to be appointed to enquire into the state of Ireland, and if they reported that such was the state of that country as to render such a Bill necessary, he should have no objection to give it his sanction, At present he could only regard it as the worst of evils, the only effect of which would be to destroy the compact between man and man, and create dissentions and disagreements which could not be too strongly deprecated. He had heard it stated that Ireland was precisely in the same state, as far as regarded the powers of this Bill, as England This he begged leave to deny. In Ireland a special agreement was entered into by the tenant to pay his rent in specie. Would the House then dissolve these compacts? Would they, by passing this Bill, completely overthrow those customs which had so long existed, without question or inconvenience? He could not help thinking that the facility already given to paper currency had given rise to something like depreciation, and had little doubt that a one pound note and a shilling would not purchase so much as a guinea. An hon. gentleman had suggested as a nostrum for this evil, that the Bank should be suffered to regulate their own issues; that country banks should be obliged to pay their notes in specie; and that government should pay to the Bank the sum due to them by the country. He should be glad to know how these measures, if adopted, would have the desired effect? Or, how the payment of that sum would draw back to the country that coin which appeared to have totally evaporated? He was firmly persuaded that the connection between the government and the Bank was extremely ruinous; but when government attempted to legislate for them, and to give value to their notes, the consequences would be fatal. As long as the war in the peninsula continued, the country could expect to have no other coin than the pocket pieces which were at present in circulation. He did hear of a flag of truce having arrived, and of some over 497] Gold Coin and Bank Note Amendment Bill. tures having been made from France. These, he hoped, would meet with that sort of attention the state of the country required. In conclusion, he declared, that if the necessity of the measure was clearly established, he would give it his support, but otherwise he should certainly vote against it. Mr. Taylor took a short view of the mischievous effects which had ever been experienced in all ages, and in all countries, by the substitution of a paper currency for He particuthe legal coin of the realm. Jarly instanced the consequences of this substitution in the American war, in Austria, and in France; and, drawing deductions from these examples, he strongly contended that the present Bill was highly impolitic, and likely to prove highly detrimental to the interests and welfare of the country. Lord Folkestone expressed his surprise, that so many gentlemen who had expressed their opinions upon this Bill, should set out by declaring their disapprobation of its principle, and yet afterwards find some qualifying circumstance which might induce them not to withhold their assent. Such had been the tenour of the speech of the hon. gentleman who had spoken last. He perfectly agreed with the hon. gentleman who spoke first in the evening, that the Bill went to create crimes which did not offend against any moral duty. It would be utterly impossible to prevent the exchange of gold for notes at a discount. In a political point of view, so far from being considered an offence, he thought such a traffic was very desirable in the present state of scarcity, as by there being a gold price and a paper price for things, the specie, if any remained, would be the more likely to continue in the country. The present Bill, however, only went to increase the temptation to the crime wished to be guarded against, and after it passed, guineas would be still less in circulation than ever. It was well known, that the traders in guineas in Dublin, after the passing of lord Stanhope's Bill, became more anxious in their traffic than ever, and he had no doubt the system would now be carried to a still greater extent. From the report on the table of the House, relative to the number of Bank notes discovered to be forgeries by the Bank, it appeared that for fourteen years previous to the suspension of cash payments, there had been but four cases of prosecution for forgery; whereas in the fourteen years subsequent (VOL. XXII.) thereto, the prosecutions had amounted to Now, by this Bill, a Bank of Nor would he state the reasons why, from time immemorial, gold and silver had been preferred as the circulating medium of every nation. Their imperishable nature, their scarcity, every thing in In addition to fact had pointed them out as the best representatives of wealth. the political inexpediency of a paper currency, there were a variety of other reasons, equally strong, against it. Its inconvenience, its liability to accident and to forgery, rendered it peculiarly objectionable. Supposing a poor man, who had received one or two pounds for his week's wages, on his way home should get drenched in the rain-what would be the consequence? his notes, which would no doubt be consigned to his pocket, would come out a perfect pap, the numbers would be destroyed, and the fruits of his labour would be completely lost. (A laugh.) Gentlemen might laugh, but such might really be the case, and such were the ac(2 K) |