service. A noble lord had said upon a former debate, that he thought it almost impossible that a man could die of re

bered to have read a speech of Baron Maseres, attorney-general of Canada, on the trial of some officers who had sentenced a soldier of the name of M'Donald to receive 200 lashes, who after receiving 170 of them, was carried to the hospital, where after lingering for four days he died. In that speech the attorney-general for Canada stated, "that when a man had been guilty in France of the murder of one of its sovereigns, (Ravaillac for the murder of Henry the fourth) the Council deliberated on a punishment adequate to the enormity of the crime. They even encouraged propositions to be made to them for that purpose; and among others, a butcher proposed to flay the man alive, and keep him in that state three days before he should die. This proposal appeared to the council too barbarous even for so heinous a crime, and they contented themselves with breaking the regicide on the wheel, and keeping him two days on the rack. Now the officers of this regiment had, for an offence comparatively trivial, inflicted a more cruel death than the council of France could bear to hear of, even for the murder of a sovereign, and more barbarous than even the butcher could propose; for he had only thought of keeping a man three days in torture, while those officers had flayed the man, and kept him four days in agony before he died."

mind formed the most important part of the evil. And for what offences was this torment, was this irrecoverable degradation frequently inflicted? He had heard ofceiving 240 lashes. He, however, rememone case, in which a man was sentenced to be flogged for having married. Thus arbitrary was the power of these military tribunals, thus capricious was its exercise. But the right hon. and learned gentleman was positive that no abuses had taken place. Why then refuse the returns, if it were only to establish a fact so pleasing to the country and to the army, and so truly honourable to those on whom the right hon. gentleman had bestowed his eulogium? His belief however was, that there had been great abuse, that there were still great abuses, and that great abuses would continue, so long as such a system of punishment was endured. It was a system unworthy of the English nation and of the English soldier, and a system which he believed would not be allowed to prevail in any other country. The right hon. and learned gentleman had admitted, that the production of the return could do no harm, would be productive of no inconvenience, and his only objection was the very courtly and unparliamentary pretence, that it might not be agreeable to the feelings of those who happened to be high in rank and office. As to the opinion that this mode of military punishment had no injurious effects on the recruiting service, he would ask gentlemen to knock at their own hearts, and imagine themselves in the situation of spectators of this dreadful spectacle, and then to say, would this or would it not damp their inclinations to enter upon a course of life in which they would be exposed to the liability of suffering the same infliction. He knew well, for he had been frequently applied to without however possessing the means of affording relief, by persons who had deserted merely from the terror of this punishment, and who felt the most ardent desire of returning to their ranks, if they could have been secure from this dreadful evil.

He believed that the soldiers could not be left longer in such a state; and he thought that the people of the country had been too indifferent hitherto on this subject; and now, with shame he must confess it, that it was with some justice that the punishment about which the country was so indifferent when confined to the regular army, had fallen upon the whole nation in all the classes in which they were liable to be called on for military

Such had been the feelings of a crown lawyer formerly, on such a punishment; but now crown lawyers and other lawyers and members of parliament could speak of it with levity, and two hundred lashes. as it seemed, were thought nothing at all of in the present state of our army. It was known, however, that deaths had since taken place in consequence of such punishment, and that many suicides had occurred from the apprehension of them. There was also published in a provincial paper an instance of a serjeant in a veteran battalion, of the name of Gill, who cut his own throat merely to avoid the pain of being obliged to witness a number of those punishments. He recollected to have read some time ago in the public papers, an article under the title "Resolute Insensibility," where it was stated that a young man, in order to obtain his discharge from the militia, pretended to

be seized with a total insensibility in all could be continued only in holes and his parts, and so resolutely persisted in corners. He would not disguise his feelit, that after pins had been run under his ings on the barbarous and ignominious nails, and every torture ingenuity could punishment which hung over the backs devise had been exhausted, a surgeon was of the army, and now, indeed, of the na called in, who, supposing that he had met tion also: nor could he at present join in with a hurt in the head, recommended the encomium passed on the Commander that he should be trepanned, which ope- in Chief, being totally ignorant on the ration was accordingly performed upon subject. If the papers called for were him, and it was not till they were scraping once before the House, and warranted that his brain, that a low groan at length burst encomium, he should feel pleasure in joinfrom him. He obtained his discharge, ing in it; but he could not, without every soon rapidly recovered, and on the rumour information which could be required beof a press-gang being in the neighbour-ing before the House, join in covering the hood, disappeared. The name of the foulness of the cat-o'-nine-tails. As to regiment, and of the surgeon, had been petitions for reforms, or for the redress of stated, and the officers of that regiment grievances, what were they in comparison or the surgeon would have undoubtedly of this measure? If England was to be contradicted this statement if it could be flogged, it was a species of infamy which contradicted. And would it after this be no other people, he believed, had ever maintained, that men were not struck been condemned to, or would have enwith dismay, at the very idea of being dured. When he saw attempts thus made driven into a service, where this punish- to baffle all enquiry into the actual state ment of flogging was part of the system? of things, and to throw dust into the eyes Would it be alleged that they not only of the House, he could not sit still and would not wish to see it changed; but, as see such despicable chains fastened on was alleged on the other side, that it even the people. The great benefit to be deformed a bond of union between the of- rived from the present motion in his mind ficer and soldier? If this was so, he knew was, that it had in view the total abolition nothing to which he could compare that of this punishment, which he trusted would sort of affection on the part of the sol- be speedily effected. Gentlemen on the diers, except to the idea of Juvenal in other side wished to be esteemed religi one of his satires, where it is said, that ous; if they believed the Bible to be the the fish was anxious that it might be taken, word of God, they must agree that this in order that it might form part of the was a punishment forbidden by it. Forty emperor's dinner. In the year 1808 there stripes lacking one, were as many as were were found to be nearly eight thousand allowed by that which they themselves blind men in the army, applying for their called the law of God. It was a punishdischarge on that account, but as it was ment against the policy of the military suspected that the greater part of those law itself. It was known in the military men had caused their own blindness to code of no other country; and what was procure their discharge, there was an there in the nature of the English, that it order issued to deprive those discharged should be palatable to them alone? Was for this cause, of the benefits of the pen- it to be endured, that the image of God sions they would otherwise have had. in man should thus be disgraced? When it was considered what dreadful sufferings men had thus borne or inflicted upon themselves to get their discharge, it was hard to believe that the situation of a soldier was quite so comfortable as had been represented. Young officers were obliged to attend these dreadful punishments in order to inure them to it; and private soldiers, who, perhaps, would have had fortitude enough to have undergone them, had often fainted in the ranks at being obliged to witness them. He was convinced that if such a practice took place, in the face of day, and the public, it must be soon laid aside, and that it

Mr. Lockhart observed, that this punishment was not peculiar to this country, as the hon. baronet appeared to imagine; but that among the Romans, the most high-minded and military nation of ancient times, corporal punishments were allowed. The dictators and consuls were attended by lictors, and the order was often given " I, lictor, perge, cædite." In the French army, formerly, there was the punishment of running the gauntlet, and there still was imprisonment in a dungeon, working at fortifications in irons, serving on board the gallies in irons, and, above all, death, which was inflicted at

least 100 times for once that it was in the English army. He had conversed with many French officers, prisoners in this country; who had assured him, that nothing could be more precarious than the condition of the French soldier, or more dependent upon the particular character or caprice of the officers. As to the number of stripes given, he certainly agreed with the hon. baronet, that such a number should never be given as would endanger life; and, indeed, he believed that our code was too Joose upon this subject. He thought that it might, perhaps, be useful to have our military code revised; and he hoped it would be found possible, in ordinary cases, to fix the proportion of the punishment to each offence. He did not think any danger of oppression and cruelty was to be apprehended in the militia or Jocal militia, as in both those services the officers were gentlemen accustomed to serve on juries, and acquainted with the spirit of our constitution. As to the English being a flogged nation, as the hon. baronet expressed it, that was a mistake. Punishment was not made for the English nation, but for the guilty, or those who deserved it. Ignominy depended on public opinion-it was not punishment but crime which conferred ignominy.

nerals of great reputation had expressly
declared their disapprobation of corporal
punishment, but at the same time he
thought that it could not be done away all
of a sudden, and especially in such times
as these. It was very satisfactory, how-
ever, to know, that those punishments were
now much less frequent than they were
formerly; and he thought it might be a
great improvement to refer those cases
(whenever they could be referred) to the
judgment of general courts-martial, rather
than to the judgment of a few officers, and
perhaps some of them young and ignorant
of what was really most conducive to the
good of the army. As to the difficulty of
procuring discharges, that had formerly
been a great hardship, but considerable
improvements had already taken place in
the regulations on that subject, and other
improvements might be expected.
must own he felt a dread of the army look-
ing up either to the House of Commons,
or to any individual member of it, for re-
dress of their complaints. He should be
glad to get the information required, but
not in the way proposed. If the govern-
ment had such accounts regularly filed at
some public office, he believed the effect
would be produced of diminishing those
punishments.

He

. Mr. C. W. Wynn would vote for this Sir Samuel Romilly begged to call back motion, although he was not prepared to the attention of the House to the question agree to the total abolition of corporal really before them. This was not a mopunishment. He thought that the fre- tion for the abolition of corporal punishquency of it, however, might and ought to ments, but for the production of certain be much diminished; and that, except in papers regarding military punishments. extraordinary cases, such as the suppression In resisting the production of the paper of a mutiny, corporal punishment ought now called for, gentlemen on the other never to be inflicted without previously side did more mischief to the cause they consulting the commanding officer of the wished to support than any return, howdistrict. He believed that cruel punish-ever great as to the number and extent of ments frequently proceeded from the mistaken notions of very young officers, who considered that nothing was more for the good of the army than great strictness and severity.

Mr. Wilberforce said, that he felt it impossible to avoid being carried away, in some measure, by the powerful effect of the statement of the hon. baronet, and by the warm feelings which he had displayed so honourably, and so forcibly. At the same time, when he considered what an army was, and how sharp and powerful an instrument it had proved against the enemies of the country, he thought there should be great caution used before any very important alteration was made in our military system. He was aware that ge

punishments it contained, which the ingenuity of man could conceive, could by possibility effect. Must not it go out to the world that they opposed the production of the paper in question, because the number of punishments which it contained must fill all who perused it with astonishment and horror? And was not this idea calculated to irritate? If the account would shew a diminution of punishment, why should they run the risk of those misrepresentations or exaggerated reports which their refusing the information would naturally produce? It was not the hon. baronet therefore who was to blame in making to the House a statement calculated to produce alarm. It was the right hon. gentleman opposite, who told the House, that to

produce the paper called for must lead to cussion of this subject had produced the the abolition of corporal punishment. If most important benefits, since within these this was really to be the result, must it not few years, in consequence of it, corporal be supposed to proceed from this, that the punishment had been greatly lessened. An return would be found to be so enormous, hon. gentleman had said, that in the mithat this must be expected as the neces litia nothing was to be feared, because the sary consequence? The hon. and learned officers were frequently magistrates, or had gentleman (Mr, Lockhart) said, he should served upon the grand juries. How true wish to revise the military code. But this assertion was, might be gathered from would he wish to do so without knowing the writings of military men, best acquaintwhat it was, and without information whe-ed with the subject, among whom was sir ther it required revision or not? The re- Robert Wilson, who had stated expressly, turn now sought for ought to be made, if that corporal punishment was more fregentlemen opposite were correct, in order quent in the militia, than in any other deto remove false impressions. Did any man partment of the service, and had supported say, that false statements, on such a sub- his observation, by making it appear, that ject, ought to be suffered to go out, while if as many men were continued to be so they were capable, by a fair view of the punished annually, as had hitherto suffered, subject, of satisfactory explanation? Was for only six years, the whole 70,000 men there ever an assembly of human beings would have undergone the inhuman senso infatuated as to suffer such a statement tence. With respect to the nature of the to go forth; preferring to cover facts in punishment, it was almost needless to the veil of darkness, rather than to allow quote the well known authority of judge them to meet the light; particularly when Blackstone, who had declared that by the the production demanded was calculated constitution of England simple death, unto remove unpleasant impressions or sur- attended with any circumstances of tormises? He could not forbear expressing ture, was the severest punishment that the his astonishment at his hon. friend behind law allowed; the rack and the knout were him (Mr. Wilberforce), who agreeing in unknown, and it remained for us by a rethe desire to remove the evil complained finement of cruelty to drive a man to the of, still refused to be informed on the very verge of existence, a surgeon standsubject. He hoped his hon. friend would ing by to feel the pulse of the sufferer, and see the propriety of altering his opinion. to pronounce when nature could bear no As to his fear of the army looking to that additional infliction, and when his soul was House; nothing, he thought, could be about to forsake his tortured body, to leap more natural than that they should look to into eternity, he was taken down from the parliament. Did not parliament legislate halberts, removed to an hospital, and every for them? Did not parliament annually means taken to call back life only to be pass their Mutiny Act? And was it not again tortured. Here the poor wretch was proper that parliament, and also the tri- left, his body more at ease, but his mind bunals which sat to give effect to the le- still upon the rack, reflecting, that the gislative provisions enacted by parliament, faster his wounds healed, the nearer he should be informed of the consequences, was to the infliction of the remainder of beneficial or otherwise, produced by the his sentence; and that his wounds were regulations of the one, and adopted for the only healed by his tormentors that they government of the other? might again be torn open. It was mere One of the greatest objections to the hypocrisy to say, that the minds of the present system of military punishment was, soldiers would be inflamed by what passed that there was no limit to the punishment in parliament; they perhaps would never courts-martial might inflict, but the mercy hear it; and would those be affected by of the members. They might order the statements in a deliberative assembly who infliction of 5, or 5,000 lashes, without were compelled to witness unmoved the control, and it was most important, that sufferings of their fellow-creatures? The they should in future know, what it was substitution of death would be comparathey did, and what they ought to do. He tively merciful, for individuals had been. would be glad to be informed, what mis- known to fly into his arms to be shielded chief was to be dreaded? Was it discus-from the lash. It should likewise be resion? The other side of the House, by their membered, that the persons who were thus resistance to this motion, provoked it, and, degraded and tormented, were not volunaccording to their own statement, the dis-tary victims; they were first compelled

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