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terity, and the next inoment it was the re- , who spoke last, had indulged himself in a fusal of others to take his situation, that most lavish panegyric on his right bon. kept him in it. His right hon. friend's friend. Why not? Was it not most dexterity must certainly be very formida- natural that he should do so? For if the ble, when there was no person on the right hon. gentleman had by any calamity other side who would venture to change not been minister, the hon. and learned places with him. But if it was not even encomist never would have had the place choice but necessity to which his right he now held. The hon, and learned genthon. friend owed his situation, he must leman had advised bis hon. friend to besay, that it was a most fortunate necessity come editor of Moore's Almanack; but he for the country. If the with holding of would ask the hon. and learned gentleman their services on the part of others was whether his hon. friend's foresight was the means of preserving his right hon. defective in every other respect except friend to his country, then that refusal changes of the weather. His hon. friend was a most important event in the history had foretold that this country, under the of England, and would be equally an im- management of the right hon. gentleman, portant event to his character. It would would be neither prosperous nor happy : shew that his fame, which was progres. and now for a few plain matter of fact sively increasing, and would increase to questions. Two years ago the right hon. ages, arose, not from any ardent and san- gentleman effected his loan at 70 in the guine love of power-that its spring was 3 per cents. ; last year at 64; and he pot in ambition, but that it was driven to should like to know was that any mark of display itself by the disinclination of others extraordinary prosperity? Did he exlo strengthen the administration, to share pect this year to get it higher than 59; in the toils and perils of his situation. It and would this also be a step in the na. was pleasing to him to say, that he knew tional prosperity ? Were these calculations no minister who had better graced his entirely within ihe range of Moore's Alpre-eminence; and under his auspices, he manack? His hon, friend was not so absurd was confident that this country would not as to attribute the present scarcity to the be reduced to the disgraceful alternative Orders in Council as its immediate cause; mentioned by the hon. gentleman oppo. but he said, that the operation of the Orsite. --The hon. and learned gentleman ders in Council made relief more difficult. concluded by saying, that if any blame Again, was not America affected by our was to be attached, in the present circum- Orders in Council ? There was enough, slances of the country, to the Orders in he was afraid, of real evil on this point, Council, the late ministers were to be and very little need of the aid of prophecy. charged with the responsibility of issuing He had promised not to stray much from the first of them, and of establishing their the question; and what was the true quesprinciple; and by alluding to the report tion? Was it not whether we should vote of the French minister for foreign affairs, the present immense sua, or go on in a who, in his report to the Conservative Se- limited scale of expence? Was it necesnate, of the Toth of Marcb, laid it down as sary for the carrying on of the war to an a maxim what would ultimately destroy honourable issue, that 138,000l. should be the naval superiority and maritime rights spent on accommodations for 350 men and of Great Britain, namely, that “ free ships horses ? Was that necessary? Was that made free goods.” Buonaparté was now prudent? The right hon. gentleman on sending forth his thunders to the Baltic, ihe floor (Mr. Huskisson) had stated our and Great Britain should be roused there- annual expenditure at 30 millions in one by to more determined resistance. | way alone; and with such an expence,
When Mr. Stephen sat down, Mr. was it right to be so profuse as to throw Lushington begged to remind the Com. away 138,0001. on a stable? Would the mittee, that the business before them at building of the stable help us to a more present was merely the Estimates for the honourable conclusion of the war? His Barrack Department.
hon. friend was blamed for hinting at Mr. Ponsonby said, that if the chairman peace. If no person but those in the se. had not called the attention of the Com- crets of the cabinet was ever to ask for mittee to the immediate business before peace, he was afraid that we should be them, he certainly should bave done so ; troubled with very little mention of it. As he would not however take up much of its to the proper time for urging the neces. time. The hon. and learned gentleman sity of peace, no member of parliament could bave any other ground to go on but and with the ports there the Orders in general pacific principles; and it was on Council had nothing to do. He was afraid, such that his hon. friend always acted. if gentlemen were sanguine in the expecThe hon, and learned gentleman who spoke tation of getting supplies from any part the panegyric, seemed to be very indig- of Europe, they would be disappointed. nant against inflammatory productions. Mr. Whitbread said, that the petitioners All the bon. gentlemen on the other side, who had come to government, and also it seemed, were quite in a passion that such to parliament, complained that they were horrible productions could have been re- in a state of starvation arising from the sorted to. They scorned to descend to want of employment, in consequence of such arts. Oh dear, yes, they rose above which they were without money to buy such meanness: they never deigned to food -a situation to which they were re. play upon the vulgar passions or preju- duced in consequence of the Orders in dices of the people! They never, inno- Council. He had observed it stated, that cent souls! imagined such a thing as the the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Rose) had, Church in Danger! They never dealt in to some of those petitioners who waited hand-bills. They knew nothing, for in- upon him from Birmingham, compared stance, of the No Popery placards in Man France and England to two men up to chester; and, unquestionably, the imme. their neck in water, who must try which diate actors there had no connection or of them could stand the longest without dependence upon government! The right being drowned. He could not suppose bon. gentleman, too, had been very com- that the right hon. gentleman had so ex. passionate to-night. He would not deny pressed himself. He was satisfied the food even to his bitterest enemy. What right hon. gentleman could not have used a happy philanthropy! How greatly must such a metaphor, conceiving as he did, the good wishes of that side of the House, the good ship of England to be so high for the benefit of the human race, be above water. lately increased! and yet how intrusive Mr. Rose said he had been very hardly would recollection sometimes be, for he dealt with in the business alluded to. He declared he could not help remembering, confessed that some such comparison had that it was those very moral and religious fallen from him (Laughter)-but denied ministers who were the promoters of the that he had treated the distresses of the Bill for prohibiting the exportation of Birmingham petitioners with any thing Peruvian bark to France.-(Loud cries of like levity. hear, hear!)
Mr. Whitbread did not suppose that the Mr. Huskisson agreed with the ideas of right hon. gentleman could have thought the right hon. gentleman who had just sat of treating with levity persons in so peridown, on the question immediately before lous a situation as he himself had described. the House. If the House was prepared, Mr. Baring agreed that the Orders in without document of any kind, to say that Council had no immediate effect in pro. 133,5001. should be granted for barracks ducing the scarcity of food, though it was for 380 men and horses, and that accom.equally true, that by reason of those modation for them could not be more econo-Orders in Council, the manufacturers were mically procured, then, and not otherwise, deprived of the means of purchasing food, they would vote for it. He proposed that were it before them in abundance. Every this part of the estimates should be post- thing, in his opinion, depended on economy poned till the House should be satisfied on in our expenditure, and, therefore, he was this head.
| against the present grant. Mr. Wharton thought any delay un- Mr. Fuller would not consent to repeal necessary. No farther information could | the Orders in Council, though it were even be furnished on the subject; and the mi. true that he could get nine shillings a litary department had declared the bar-pound for his sugars in France. If the racks indispensibly necessary.
iwo countries must be like two fellows Mr. Rose was ready to maintain, that numping, each striving to save bimself the the Orders in Council were not the cause longest above water, let it be so; but Old of producing a greater state of distress in England should never yield to France. the country. They did not prevent a Mr. Huskisson said, he should move that supply; on the contrary, they gave faci, instead of 534,000l. the grant be reduced lity to the supply, in aid of the people. to 400,0001. Grain principally came from the Baltic, Mr. Wynn objected to a grant which amounted to no less a sum than 3801. per
List of the Minority. man and horse. In other barracks the es
Hurst, R. timate was 821. per man. Was it to be un- |
Baring, sir T.
Kemp, T. derstood that 3001. was for each hurse's stall? Broughain, H. Narryatt, J. Mr. Wharton said, the estimate only cor Bankes, H.
Montgomery, col. responded with other estimates.
Bennet, hon. H. Ossulst in, lord Mr. Calcraft observed, that barracks bad Biddulph, R. M. Parnell, H. been built in his neighbourhood for 100 | Babington, T.
Ponsonby,rt. hon. G. cavalry, at an expence of about 6,0001. I
Popham, sir H.
Sinith, S. cising was to be inclosed to the amount of
Smith, A. about 27 acres.
Eden, hon. G. Sinclair, G. Mr. Fremantle objected to granting a Folkestone, visc. Thornton, H. Jarger sum than it was calculated the in French, major
Taylor, W. tended barracks would cost.
Thompson, T. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that
Williams, sir R. the sum proposed was not for procuring
Westerne, C.C. accommodation for the horses and men
Hamilton, lord A. Warrender, sir G,
Hutchinson, hon. H. Wynn, C. alone, but for the Staff also, for an inclosed
Huskisson, W. Whitbrcad, S. exercising ground, and for temporary accommodation within the walls for a larger body of horse, when occasion should re
HOUSE OF LORDS. quire.
Tuesday, April 14. Mr. Whitbread appealed to the Commit | East India Company's CHARTER.) tee if there was a single man in the House The Duke of Norfolk presented a Petiwho had had the smallest idea of the nation from the merchants and manufacture of this grant till now. Either the turers of Sheffield, pointing out the great right hon. gentleman who spoke last knew advantages which would result to them more on this subject than the Secretary of and to the country in general, from a rethe Treasury did, or the latter had not done newal of the East India Company's Char. bis duty. He asked, would the hon. Se. ter.-The Petition having been read, cretary not now agree to postpone this Earl Fitzwilliam observed, that, in addigrant? Or would not the Committee feel tion to the Petitions then lying on their a jealousy how they acceded to the grant- lordships' table, against the continuance of ing of money on such an estimate ? the East India Company's monopoly,
Mr. Ponsonby said the question was not, others were preparing in every city and whether this sum should be voted at all or town, throughout the kingdom; it was not; but whether or not time should be therefore right that the people should be given to the Committee to understand apprised of what step government intendwhat they were doing. All he shoulded to take. say, if it was true that France and England | The Duke of Norfolk said, it certainly were now to be compared to two men up was desirable, that information, both as to to the neck in water, and if in such cir- the time when any measure on this subject cumstances, barracks for 350 soldiers were would be brought forward, and to the obto cost England 133,000l. it was not diffi- Lject which ministers had in view, should be cult to see which of the two must be imparted to the House and the public. choaked first.
He did not mean to follow up tbis obserLord Polkestone strongly objected to a vation by introducing anything like a larger grant than was proved to be neces. | discussion. But, he should be glad to sary, particularly for the erection of bar learn, whether government intended to racks, which that House and the country leave the East India Company in complete had been accustomed to regard with a jea- | possession of the trade, to diminish it parJous eye. The speech of the right hon. tially, or to throw it open entirely? This the Chancellor of the Exchequer too, fur. information was not only necessary to the nished additional ground for postponing manufacturer, but to the public in general. the grant till the House was better in The Earl of Buckinghamshire said, that, formed.
in the present state of the negociation beThe House then divided, when the num- | tween the government and the East India bers were, against the Amendment 88 Company, it was out of his power to give For it 10-Majority 48.
any distinct answer,
Earl Grey said, it had been truly ob- each year, &c. which was forthwith agreed served by his noble friend, that Petitions to by the House. His lordship then were preparing against the East India moved for the production of an account of Company's monopoly, in almost every the number of notes so presented and retown in the kingdom; and, with such an turned. interest at stake, and so much attention The Earl of Liverpool observed, that to and anxiety manifested on the part of the the first part of the noble earl's proposipublic, surely they had a right to expeci, | tion he thought, under the present cirthat the business would have been so ar- cumstances, and with reference to the Bill ranged by government, that it would be in its progress in that House, no rational brought forward at a time when all the objection could be made. It, besides, consideration due to its great importance would furnish all the necessary or useful could be paid to it. But now he under | information desired, inasmuch as the spestood from the noble eart, that the discus- cification of the value in each year would sions between ministers and the Com. / shew the progress as well as the extent of pany were not yet closed, and therefore the evil. With regard to that under conthey were not ready to give any specific sideration, he certainly entertained no obanswer. What, then, would be their si.jections ; it would also, on the poble earl's tuation, if the discussion were delayed till own ground, afford but litile further ina very late period of the session? Could formation, except a distinction was made they then give the subject that deep con- | between the notes below and above the sideration which it deserved? He did sum of 51. One strong objection was, that not wish to press ministers to introduce it would afford information as to what deany premature or hasty measure on the scription of notes forgeries might be the subject; but if they were not now prepar-more easily made ; every useful purpose ed to submit a proposition to the legisla. | would be answered by a specification of fure, or, at a very early period indeed, the actual number and total value of the from this time, he hoped, as the Charter notes refused in each year, and what was would not expire for two years, and as the new proposed appeared to hiin at best to interests concerned were various and com- be unnecessary and superfluous. plicated, that it would not be brought for 1 Earl Grey thought, by what fell from ward during the present' session.
the noble Secretary of State, he must have
misapprehended the object of his motion ; BANK OF ENGLAND.) Earl Grey rose to it went to shew what he allowed to be probring forward the motion respecting which per, the extent of the evil, and which he had recently given notice. It would could not be satisfactorily shewn without go, he observed, first, for an account of an account of the number of instances in the total value of the notes refused in pay. whicb the evil bad taken place; it was ment at the Bank since the year 1797, on not so much the amount as in the nature the ground of their being forged, distin- of the sum, and the multiplicity of inguishing the value of those in each re- stances in which the offence had been spective year since that period. To this, committed. It was said not to exceed he believed, no objection would be made. 9,0001. as to nominal value, one year with But the information he most wished for, another, but without a specification of the and without which the anterior would be numbers, they could not tell whether bugatory, was an account of the number forgeries were committed in nine instances of the notes so presented; this he thought of 1,000l. each, or in nine thousand inmore especially necessary, with a view to stances of 11. each. He had no objection the discussion of the measure which would to amend his motion as suggested, by ere long come before that House. Such a calling for a distinction of the notes under statement alone, he said, would enable and above 51.; and as to the objection of them to form a judgment how far indivi- the noble earl, that to publish the descripduals were likely to suffer in that way tion of notes would be injurious, he under the system, which that measure thought it could not really be believed, went to extend, and to continue. The that the practitioners in forgery wanted noble earl then moved for an account of any information through the medium of. the value of the notes as above, from the that House. One great object should be year 1797 to the latest period the same the diminution of opportunities for the could be made up, distinguishing the no- | commission of the offence alluded to, as minal value of the notes so presented in far as possible, for it made one's blood rup (VOL. XXII.)
cold to read the facts in the papers of the view, the fullest information should be numbers brought to trial on such charges, afforded. One great means which led to and sent away with verdicts of Guilty the facility of forgery was the wretched Death.
style of executing notes; and it had been The Earl of Liverpool contended, that said to him, jocosely no doubt, that they every useful purpose would be answered ought not to hang those who forged, but from the accounts already ordered. He the Bank directors for making the notes was far from wishing to withhold any so liable to be forged. information really useful or necessary : Earl Grey amended his motion, in the the real question to be considered was, way suggested by his noble friend; and whether the evil complained of was pro. the question being put thereon, their lord. gressively increasing or not, and that ships divided. would fully appear by the accounts just For the motion - - - - 12 ordered.
Against it - - - - - - 27 • The Earl of Lauderdale contended, that|
Majority ... - - - 15 the specification called for by his noble The Earl of Lauderdale moved, that friend, was necessary to elucidate that there be laid before the House a statement. part of a very important subject. The of the period at which the directors of the noble Secretary seemed to have forgot, that Bank of England gave up indennifying before 1797, notes of ll. and 21. were un- the holders of forged notes.On this proknown in the country. The forgeries position some conversation took place. were said to be chiefly for those low sums, | Lord Holland expressed his surprise that and it was proper they should know how ministers seemed unwilling to acquiesce in far the evil arose from that system which propositions of the kind, until they had the expected Bill went to enforce and to consulted the Bank directors. The mocontinue.
tion he thought necessary, and adverted Earl Stanhope hoped their lordships to the period, as long subsequent to the would permit him to say a few words re- restriction on the Bank. He noticed the specting the opinions just declared upon a circumstance of a forged note he had very important subject. He believed it to brought some years after that period, and be fact, that the greater proportion of the which he had communicated to the Bank value of the forgeries had been in the as connected with a system of forgery, small notes. He did not approve of the said to be then going on. He was offered motion as then worded; it was liable to an indemnification. But he could not avoid objection urged by the noble Secretary, as observing, that it was to the disgrace of to its tending to mislead. He saw no rea- the country that the example was set, not son, however, why his noble friend should by individuals, but by the government it. not call for a specification of all the self, and it was to the shame of the counclasses of notes in which forgeries were try that the practice should be approved committed. It was a topic to which he in the tribunals, on the ground of its being believed he had given ten times the atten- against the enemy of the country. tion given to it by all the members of par- The Earl of Liverpool said, that with re. liament put together. He had suggestèd respect to any specific proceeding of a mode which would go to prevent forge- the government of the country at the ries at home ; but what was greatly to be time adverted to by the noble baron, feared was the effects of foreign forgery, he certainly could not speak from when these notes should be put on a dif. any personal knowledge ; but they all ferent footing; the forgeries would be knew, that when the circumstance had extensive and systematical. Their lord. been expressly referred to in that House ships recollected the forgeries of the as- -it was strongly denied and disclaimed signats. With regard to the Bill in its by a noble baron (lord Grenville) then progress to that House, the great object | holding a high situation in the governwith respect to it, and ihe subject of wbich ment, who denied that such a fact had it formed a part, was that the holder of ever taken place. With respect to the the note should receive the value it was idea held by the noble baron, of his worth. Every thing that could, should proneness to consult those whose interests be done to prevent forgery and its conse- were so immediately concerned, he had quences; and also to render the person to state, he felt it incumbent on him, not who held a note, certain that he would re- only in the case of the bank of England, 'ceive that which was its value. In that but of any other public body whose in,