terity, and the next moment it was the refusal of others to take his situation, that kept him in it. His right hon. friend's dexterity must certainly be very formidable, when there was no person on the other side who would venture to change places with him. But if it was not even choice but necessity to which his right hon. friend owed his situation, he must say, that it was a most fortunate necessity for the country. If the withholding of their services on the part of others was the means of preserving his right hon. friend to his country, then that refusal was a most important event in the history of England, and would be equally an important event to his character. It would shew that his fame, which was progressively increasing, and would increase to ages, arose, not from any ardent and sanguine love of power-that its spring was not in ambition, but that it was driven to display itself by the disinclination of others to strengthen the administration, to share in the toils and perils of his situation. It was pleasing to him to say, that he knew no minister who had better graced his pre-eminence; and under his auspices, he was confident that this country would not be reduced to the disgraceful alternative mentioned by the hon. gentleman opposite. The hon. and learned gentleman concluded by saying, that if any blame was to be attached, in the present circumstances of the country, to the Orders in Council, the late ministers were to be charged with the responsibility of issuing the first of them, and of establishing their principle; and by alluding to the report of the French minister for foreign affairs, who, in his report to the Conservative Senate, of the 10th of March, laid it down as a maxim what would ultimately destroy the naval superiority and maritime rights of Great Britain, namely, that "free ships made free goods." Buonaparté was now sending forth his thunders to the Baltic, and Great Britain should be roused thereby to more determined resistance. who spoke last, had indulged himself in a most lavish panegyric on his right hon. friend. Why not? Was it not most natural that he should do so? For if the right hon. gentleman had by any calamity not been minister, the hon. and learned encomist never would have had the place he now held. The hon, and learned gentleman had advised his hon. friend to become editor of Moore's Almanack; but he would ask the hon. and learned gentleman whether his hon. friend's foresight was defective in every other respect except changes of the weather. His hon. friend had foretold that this country, under the management of the right hon. gentleman, would be neither prosperous nor happy: and now for a few plain matter of fact questions. Two years ago the right hon. gentleman effected his loan at 70 in the 3 per cents.; last year at 64; and he should like to know was that any mark of extraordinary prosperity? Did he expect this year to get it higher than 59; and would this also be a step in the national prosperity? Were these calculations entirely within the range of Moore's Almanack? His hon. friend was not so absurd as to attribute the present scarcity to the Orders in Council as its immediate cause; but he said, that the operation of the Orders in Council made relief more difficult. Again, was not America affected by our Orders in Council? There was enough, he was afraid, of real evil on this point, and very little need of the aid of prophecy. He had promised not to stray much from the question; and what was the true question? Was it not whether we should vote the present immense sum, or go on in a limited scale of expence? Was it necessary for the carrying on of the war to an honourable issue, that 138,000l. should be spent on accommodations for 350 men and horses? Was that necessary? Was that prudent? The right hon. gentleman on the floor (Mr. Huskisson) had stated our annual expenditure at 30 millions in one way alone; and with such an expence, was it right to be so profuse as to throw away 138,000l. on a stable? Would the building of the stable help us to a more honourable conclusion of the war? His hon. friend was blamed for hinting at Mr. Ponsonby said, that if the chairman peace. If no person but those in the sehad not called the attention of the Com-crets of the cabinet was ever to ask for mittee to the immediate business before them, he certainly should have done so; he would not however take up much of its time. The hon. and learned gentleman When Mr. Stephen sat down, Mr. Lushington begged to remind the Committee, that the business before them at present was merely the Estimates for the Barrack Department. peace, he was afraid that we should be troubled with very little mention of it. As to the proper time for urging the necessity of peace, no member of parliament could bave any other ground to go on but general pacific principles; and it was on such that his hon. friend always acted. The hon. and learned gentleman who spoke the panegyric, seemed to be very indignant against inflammatory productions. All the hon. gentlemen on the other side, it seemed, were quite in a passion that such horrible productions could have been resorted to. They scorned to descend to such arts. Oh dear, yes, they rose above such meanness: they never deigned to play upon the vulgar passions or prejudices of the people! They never, innocent souls! imagined such a thing as the Church in Danger! They never dealt in hand-bills. They knew nothing, for instance, of the No Popery placards in Man chester; and, unquestionably, the immediate actors there had no connection or dependence upon government! The right hon. gentleman, too, had been very compassionate to-night. He would not deny food even to his bitterest enemy. What a happy philanthropy! How greatly must the good wishes of that side of the House, for the benefit of the human race, be lately increased! and yet how intrusive would recollection sometimes be, for he declared he could not help remembering, that it was those very moral and religious ministers who were the promoters of the Bill for prohibiting the exportation of Peruvian bark to France.-(Loud cries of hear, hear!) Mr. Huskisson agreed with the ideas of the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, on the question immediately before the House. If the House was prepared, without document of any kind, to say that 133,500l. should be granted for barracks for 380 men and horses, and that accom. modation for them could not be more economically procured, then, and not otherwise, they would vote for it. He proposed that this part of the estimates should be postponed till the House should be satisfied on this head. Mr. Wharton thought any delay unnecessary. No farther information could be furnished on the subject; and the military department had declared the barracks indispensibly necessary. Mr. Rose was ready to maintain, that the Orders in Council were not the cause of producing a greater state of distress in the country. They did not prevent a supply; on the contrary, they gave facility to the supply, in aid of the people. Grain principally came from the Baltic, and with the ports there the Orders in Council had nothing to do. He was afraid, if gentlemen were sanguine in the expectation of getting supplies from any part of Europe, they would be disappointed. Mr. Whitbread said, that the petitioners who had come to government, and also to parliament, complained that they were in a state of starvation arising from the want of employment, in consequence of which they were without money to buy food-a situation to which they were reduced in consequence of the Orders in Council. He had observed it stated, that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Rose; had, to some of those petitioners who waited upon him from Birmingham, compared France and England to two men up to their neck in water, who must try which of them could stand the longest without being drowned. He could not suppose that the right hon. gentleman had so expressed himself. He was satisfied the right hon. gentleman could not have used such a metaphor, conceiving as he did, the good ship of England to be so high above water. Mr. Rose said he had been very hardly dealt with in the business alluded to. He confessed that some such comparison had fallen from him [Laughter]-but denied that he had treated the distresses of the Birmingham petitioners with any thing like levity. Mr. Whitbread did not suppose that the right hon. gentleman could have thought of treating with levity persona in so perilous a situation as he himself had described. Mr. Baring agreed that the Orders in Council had no immediate effect in producing the scarcity of food, though it was equally true, that by reason of those Orders in Council, the manufacturers were deprived of the means of purchasing food, were it before them in abundance. Every thing, in his opinion, depended on economy in our expenditure, and, therefore, he was against the present grant. Mr. Fuller would not consent to repeal the Orders in Council, though it were even true that he could get nine shillings a pound for his sugars in France. If the two countries must be like two fellows pumping, each striving to save himself the longest above water, let it be so; but Old England should never yield to France. Mr. Huskisson said, he should move that instead of 534,000l. the grant be reduced to 400,000%. Mr. Wynn objected to a grant which amounted to no less a sum than 380l. per Mr. Calcraft observed, that barracks bad been built in his neighbourhood for 100 cavalry, at an expence of about 6,000!. Mr. Wharton said, that ground for exercising was to be inclosed to the amount of about 27 acres. Mr. Fremantle objected to granting a larger sum than it was calculated the intended barracks would cost. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the sum proposed was not for procuring accommodation for the horses and men alone, but for the Staff also, for an inclosed exercising ground, and for temporary accommodation within the walls for a larger body of horse, when occasion should require. Mr. Whitbread appealed to the Committee if there was a single man in the House who had had the smallest idea of the nature of this grant till now. Either the right hon. gentleman who spoke last knew more on this subject than the Secretary of the Treasury did, or the latter had not done his duty. He asked, would the hon. Secretary not now agree to postpone this grant? Or would not the Committee feel a jealousy how they acceded to the granting of money on such an estimate? EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.] The Duke of Norfolk presented a Petition from the merchants and manufacturers of Sheffield, pointing out the great advantages which would result to them and to the country in general, from a renewal of the East India Company's Charter.-The Petition having been read, Earl Fitzwilliam observed, that, in addition to the Petitions then lying on their lordships' table, against the continuance of the East India Company's monopoly, others were preparing in every city and town, throughout the kingdom; it was therefore right that the people should be apprised of what step government intended to take. Mr. Ponsonby said the question was not, whether this sum should be voted at all or not; but whether or not time should be given to the Committee to understand what they were doing. All he should say, if it was true that France and England The Duke of Norfolk said, it certainly were now to be compared to two men up was desirable, that information, both as to to the neck in water, and if in such cir- the time when any measure on this subject cumstances, barracks for 350 soldiers were would be brought forward, and to the obto cost England 133,000l. it was not diffi-ject which ministers had in view, should be cult to see which of the two must be choaked first. Lord Folkestone strongly objected to a larger grant than was proved to be neces sary, particularly for the erection of barracks, which that House and the country had been accustomed to regard with a jealous eye. The speech of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer too, furnished additional ground for postponing the grant till the House was better informed. The House then divided, when the numbers were, against the Amendment 88 For it 40-Majority 48. imparted to the House and the public. He did not mean to follow up this observation by introducing any thing like a discussion. But, he should be glad to learn, whether government intended to leave the East India Company in complete possession of the trade, to diminish it partially, or to throw it open entirely? This information was not only necessary to the manufacturer, but to the public in general. The Earl of Buckinghamshire said, that, in the present state of the negociation between the government and the East India Company, it was out of his power to give any distinct answer. each year, &c. which was forthwith agreed to by the House. His lordship then moved for the production of an account of the number of notes so presented and returned. The Earl of Liverpool observed, that to the first part of the noble earl's proposition he thought, under the present circumstances, and with reference to the Bill in its progress in that House, no rational objection could be made. It, besides, would furnish all the necessary or useful information desired, inasmuch as the specification of the value in each year would shew the progress as well as the extent of the evil. With regard to that under consideration, he certainly entertained no ob Earl Grey said, it had been truly ob- | served by his noble friend, that Petitions were preparing against the East India Company's monopoly, in almost every town in the kingdom; and, with such an interest at stake, and so much attention and anxiety manifested on the part of the public, surely they had a right to expect, that the business would have been so arranged by government, that it would be brought forward at a time when all the consideration due to its great importance could be paid to it. But now he understood from the noble earl, that the discussions between ministers and the Company were not yet closed, and therefore they were not ready to give any specific answer. What, then, would be their si-jections; it would also, on the noble earl's tuation, if the discussion were delayed till a very late period of the session? Could they then give the subject that deep consideration which it deserved? He did not wish to press ministers to introduce any premature or hasty measure on the subject; but if they were not now prepared to submit a proposition to the legislature, or, at a very early period indeed, from this time, he hoped, as the Charter would not expire for two years, and as the interests concerned were various and complicated, that it would not be brought forward during the present session. BANK OF ENGLAND.] Earl Grey rose to bring forward the motion respecting which he had recently given notice. It would go, he observed, first, for an account of the total value of the notes refused in payment at the Bank since the year 1797, on the ground of their being forged, distinguishing the value of those in each respective year since that period. To this, he believed, no objection would be made. But the information he most wished for, and without which the anterior would be nugatory, was an account of the number of the notes so presented; this he thought more especially necessary, with a view to the discussion of the measure which would ere long come before that House. Such a statement alone, he said, would enable them to form a judgment how far individuals were likely to suffer in that way under the system, which that measure went to extend, and to continue. The noble earl then moved for an account of the value of the notes as above, from the year 1797 to the latest period the same could be made up, distinguishing the nominal value of the notes so presented in (VOL. XXII.) own ground, afford but little further information, except a distinction was made between the notes below and above the sum of 51. One strong objection was, that it would afford information as to what description of notes forgeries might be the more easily made; every useful purpose would be answered by a specification of the actual number and total value of the notes refused in each year, and what was now proposed appeared to him at best to be unnecessary and superfluous. Earl Grey thought, by what fell from the noble Secretary of State, he must have misapprehended the object of his motion; it went to shew what he allowed to be proper, the extent of the evil, and which could not be satisfactorily shewn without an account of the number of instances in which the evil had taken place; it was not so much the amount as in the nature of the sum, and the multiplicity of instances in which the offence had been committed. It was said not to exceed 9,000l. as to nominal value, one year with another, but without a specification of the numbers, they could not tell whether forgeries were committed in nine instances of 1,000l. each, or in nine thousand instances of 11. each. He had no objection to amend his motion as suggested, by calling for a distinction of the notes under and above 51.; and as to the objection of the noble earl, that to publish the description of notes would be injurious, he thought it could not really be believed, that the practitioners in forgery wanted any information through the medium of. that House. One great object should be the diminution of opportunities for the commission of the offence alluded to, as far as possible, for it made one's blood run (Y) The Earl of Lauderdale moved, that there be laid before the House a statement of the period at which the directors of the Bank of England gave up indemnifying the holders of forged notes. On this proposition some conversation took place. Lord Holland expressed his surprise that ministers seemed unwilling to acquiesce in propositions of the kind, until they had consulted the Bank directors. The motion he thought necessary, and adverted to the period, as long subsequent to the restriction on the Bank. He noticed the circumstance of a forged note he had brought some years after that period, and which he had communicated to the Bank as connected with a system of forgery, said to be then going on. He was offered indemnification. But he could not avoid observing, that it was to the disgrace of the country that the example was set, not by individuals, but by the government itself, and it was to the shame of the country that the practice should be approved in the tribunals, on the ground of its being against the enemy of the country. Earl Stanhope hoped their lordships would permit him to say a few words respecting the opinions just declared upon a very important subject. He believed it to be fact, that the greater proportion of the value of the forgeries had been in the small notes. He did not approve of the motion as then worded; it was liable to an objection urged by the noble Secretary, as to its tending to mislead. He saw no reason, however, why his noble friend should not call for a specification of all the classes of notes in which forgeries were committed. It was a topic to which he believed he had given ten times the attention given to it by all the members of par- The Earl of Liverpool said, that with reliament put together. He had suggested respect to any specific proceeding of a mode which would go to prevent forge- the government of the country at the ries at home; but what was greatly to be time adverted to by the noble baron, feared was the effects of foreign forgery, he certainly could not speak from when these notes should be put on a dif. any personal knowledge; but they all ferent footing; the forgeries would be knew, that when the circumstance had extensive and systematical. Their lord- been expressly referred to in that House ships recollected the forgeries of the as--it was strongly denied and disclaimed signats. With regard to the Bill in its progress to that House, the great object with respect to it, and the subject of which it formed a part, was that the holder of the note should receive the value it was worth. Every thing that could, should be done to prevent forgery and its consequences; and also to render the person who held a note, certain that he would re ́ceive that which was its value. In that by a noble baron (lord Grenville) then holding a high situation in the government, who denied that such a fact had ever taken place. With respect to the idea held by the noble baron, of his proneness to consult those whose interests were so immediately concerned, he had to state, he felt it incumbent on him, not only in the case of the bank of England, but of any other public body whose in |