tence, but this requires the ferious attention of the whole Legiflature. It would be cruel to the laft degree, that when your fubjects are employed in preferving the peace, not to give them the utmoft fecurity in the execution of their duty. But let me afk, Sir, in what fituation will that navy and army be, that has no protection for executing the laws which you have vefted in their hands? Will you leave them a facrifice to the rapacity of the revengeful difpofitions of the relations of those unhappy men who may fall by their hands, in the execution of their duty? I cannot think this Act will operate in any fhape to the detriment of the people, if they return to their duty; if that is the cafe, that they do return, and be obedient, the Act will be a waste piece of paper; but the trial of perfons in England will feldom take place, I apprehend, as nothing but the moft abfolute neceffity will drive the Governor to have recourfe to the Act.

Mr. PAULET faid a few words, and obferved, that nothing Mr. Paulet was ever more just than the measure proposed in the Bill before the Houfe; that it was the most cruel thing to let a man lie even one hour in prison, in expectation of being tried by a jury whofe minds were biaffed; but for the fake of justice, a voyage across the Atlantick would furely be thought, on fuch an account, an undertaking not pregnant with much danger.

Mr. SAWBRIDGE-I hope, Sir, the Houfe will hear me Mr. Saw. a few words, as it is the laft opportunity I fhall have. The bridge. oppofition I have given to thefe measures, does not proceed from a fettled difpofition against Administration, nor do I do it for the fake of popularity; it is for the love of that liberty which I have always been ftrengthened in, and bred up by education. I had rather bear the badge of the parish, than that of apoftacy. It has been urged in debate, that this country has a right to purfue thofe measures adopted in the Bill, and that neceflity is the ground and argument which urges it on: but pray, Sir, let me afk, who is to be the judge of that neceffity? A nation furely cannot be called a free nation, where another has a right to draw money out of their pockets; but I cannot understand how any one can agree with these measures, and deny the right of taxation. If you exercise an authority which does not belong to you, or if you force an illegal authority, they have a right to refift. I do not fee any neceffity for bringing over the people to be tried by a jury of England; I think the Crown fhould have lodged a power in the Governor to pardon, and I fhould have thought it the brightest jewel in it on this occafion. You fay, that the Governor is to use his difcretion with regard to the having a fair trial; but by this Bill the Governor, I fay, is not the judge of that, for it must

be

Col. Barre.

Mr. Pulteney.

Mr. Fuller.

be upon the oath of a witnefs; he must believe that witnefs, and no difcretion is left in the Governor. No man will become a voluntary evidence on fuch an occafion; he will fooner fly from that fituation, than be tranfported to England. By that means juftice will be evaded, as evidence cannot be had, and the people will foon take upon themselves to revenge their own injuries.

COLONEL BARRE--Sir, I think it criminal to fit ftill upon the final decifion of this queftion, as I cannot, in any fhape, approve of this measure. I think the perfons whom you employ to execute your laws, might have been protected. in the execution of their duty in a lefs exceptionable manner than that Bill propofes. Your army, Sir, in that country, has the cafting voice; and it is dangerous, Sir, to put any more power into their hands. Confider, Sir, how long they will be content with 4d. per day; I am afraid not long. You have had one meeting already, you may foon have another; the people of America will receive these regulations as edicts from an arbitrary Government. The heaviest offence they have been guilty of is, that they have refifted that law which bears fuch an arbitrary caft. I want to know, if we in this country had not refifted fuch arbitrary laws in certain ancient times, whether we fhould have exifted as a Houfe of Commons here this day? I object much against the doctrine which I have heard laid down, that the particular exigency of the cafe countenanced the measure. I do not apprehend the Americans will abandon their principles; for if they fubmit, they are flaves: I therefore execrate the prefent meafure, in the manner pro pofed.

Mr. PULTENEY-Sir, I will comprife in a few words what I have to fay: I do not apprehend that the Legislature can tax a particular county, without fhewing fome degree of partiality to others, nor can they justly do it. I think the principles of this Bill may be tolerably equitable, and I do believe it will produce a fair trial; but as there are some defects in the prefent form in which it now ftands, with regard to the errors and flaws that may be in an indictment, I will offer a clause, by way of rider, to give power to a jury in England to find a bill of indictment, in order to correct such a deficiency.

Mr. FULLER----Sir, I will now take my leave of the whole plan, and I will give you my free opinion of it: You will commence your ruin from this day, if you do not repeal that tax which created all this disturbance; you will have no degree of confidence with the Americans; people will not truft you when your credit is gone; you may, I fay, date your ruin from this day; and, I am forry to fay, that not only this House has fallen

into that error, but that the people of this country approve of the measure. I find the people with for the measures propofed in this Bill, as much as the majority here; it is not all owing to the junto of a Ministry that these measures are taken, it is the people at large, whom I am forry to say, are misled; they are in an error, but a fhort time will prove the evil tendency of this Bill. I think this Bill before us bears the least injury of any of the three; but, if there ever was a nation running headlong to its ruin, it is this.

Mr. H. CAVENDISH-Sir, I am very glad to hear that Mr. Cavent there is a majority in this House for thefe measures, but am dish. much better pleased to find that the country in general approve of them in as high a degree.

The House divided on the queftion, that the Bill do pass; Ayes, 127; Noes, 24.

May 12. The Houfe, in a Committee of Enquiry, on the ftate of the Linen Trade of Great Britain and Ireland, Mr. M'Biggar, Agent for the Linen Board of Scotland, was called in, and underwent an examination of above two hours. His evidence chiefly confifted of a general state of the trade in both kingdoms, and a variety of observations upon the whole of the evidence given on the part of the Hamburgh merchants, a great part of which he attempted to invalidate from authentick papers before the Houfe. As foon as he withdrew, Sir Gilbert Elliot, and the gentlemen on that fide, pressed those who had prefented petitions on behalf of the woollen manufacturers, to proceed to a proof of the facts therein ftated. This produced a debate, but no queftion was put.

May 13. The House in a Committee of Supply: Refolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the fum of 288,030. be granted to his Majefty to make good the extraordinaries of the army from March 24, 1772, to April 22, 1774.

COLONEL BARRE, from a paper which he held in his Col. Barre. NEL hand, obferved on the four following fums in the cftimate, which he said he should be glad to have explained. The first was the fum of 17,000l. to Governor Leybourne; the fecond, of 12,000l. to the Deputy Governor of Canada, for the civil expences of that province; the third 26,000l. to Colonel Dalrymple; and the laft article, 8661. being a debt contracted in the hospital service in the years 1744, 1745, and 1746, in Scotland and Flanders. After defcanting on the manner those feveral expences were incurred, and the mode they were now brought forward, he proceeded to obferve, that our peace establish

Lord North.

Col. Barre.

Rt. Hon. T.

eftabli fhment was every day increafing, and was at length be come too heavy and burdenfome to be any longer borne, as being totally difproportioned to our ability; that our land and malt, eftimating them at the higheft, which was 2,250,000%. was entirely fwallowed up by the expences of our navy; and that, eftimating the maintenance of our army at 1,500,000! our ordnance at 250,000l. and the pay of the militia at 110,000/ thefe estimates added to the naval eftablishment, would amount to the enormous fum of 4,150,000l. that the military establifhment of Ireland was 550,000l. which together amounted to 4,700,000l. which exceeded that of France, formed on the largeft fcale, by 300,000l. He then enumerated the feveral items in the French eftablishment, in denominations current in that country, and fhewed the whole did not amount to more than 4,400,000l. He obferved on this ftatement that it was a matter of very serious confideration, when it was known, that this, in all probability, would be the lowest estimate we should experience for fome years; and concluded with informing the Committee, that this was the laft day in the feffion he would have it in his power to fubmit these important and truly alarming facts to the Heufe, as the opening the budget was generally a day of triumph to the Minifter, it being looked upon extremely impolite and ill-timed, to interrupt him in the full enjoyment of it.

LORD NORTH faid, that day of importance would be the 18th. He went through the fums mentioned by the Colonel, and stated them differently; and faid, that on the 18th he fhould be thoroughly informed refpecting the fituation we stood in with France, when he would deliver his fentiments, and open the budget.

COLONEL BARRE again rose, and defired the noble Lord to difcufs the matter now, and open his budget in peace.

RIGHT HON. T. TOWNSHEND was very fevere on AdTownshend miniftration, and obferved, that they had frequently fent many more troops to St. Vincent and the Ceded Islands than were neceffary; fome were fent to butcher the Indians, and others to work as mechanicks, not as foldiers; and that all our expences were much above what we are able to bear. Dominica, in particular, he faid, had fwallowed up thousands of brave men; that there were now fix companies there, and he should be glad to know for what.

Lord North.

LORD NORTH faid, that although the expences were fo high this year, he would pledge himfelf they would be much lefs another; that when the fhips returned from the Eaft Indies, a much less fleet would do; that many expences had

been

been laid out on the navy, in order to put it in a proper ftate of defence, which expences would not be wanting again for a confiderable time; that we fhould only have now to keep it in repair, before we had it to eftablish; that our dock-yards were now better ftocked with timber than they had been for many years, and that almost every extraordinary expence was now completed.

GOVERNOR JOHNSTONE fpoke greatly againft the Governor enormous expences which our army and navy every year fwal-Johnstone. lowed up, although we were every feffions told that we were

in profound peace.

Mr. W, BURKE faid, that we were always told by the Mr. Wm. Minifter that the next year the expences would be lefs, but he Burke, was forry to fay, the Minifter's prediction in that inftance ne

ver came true.

May 18. LORD NORTH this day opened the budget. Lord North, When he had ftated the accounts, he went on with faying it had been daily repeated, that no part of the national debt had been paid off fince the conclufion of the peace. This he faid was untrue; for although the funded debt was rather increafed, the unfunded was diminished from 13,000,000l. and a fraction, to 2,000,000l. and a fraction; fo that, balancing the increase of the funded againft the decreafe of the unfunded, it would appear that 8,000,000l. and a fraction of national debt had been paid off within the laft ten years, which reduction produced a faving of 360,000l. per annum to the nation.

But it feems, from what has been pretty often dropped in this Houfe, and even without doors, that notwithstanding the affairs of this country are in fo good a fituation, yet, taken relatively to thofe of France, they are in a very bad fituation; this has been produced as a matter of terror, reproach, and example to thofe who are concerned in the administration of affairs here. Sir, I fhall defire to go a little into this circumstance, but first I muft premife that an accurate knowledge of the French finances is to be had by very few.; I do not believe there is a perfon out of the offices in that country that knows much of the matter with accuracy; but it is eafy for a gentleman of quick parts to travel into France, and gain that kind of information, to hold forth, and to perfuade people who know nothing of the matter, that he knows fomething of the matter (meaning Colonel Barré). Sir, the French finances are not tranfacted in a Houfe of Commons, or a Committee of Supply, but in private chambers; it is the glory of this country that all the world knows what England owes, and what England can pay; but in France all is private, the refolutions of the Cabinet VOL. VII.

L1

are