parish of Creagh; the whole of that parish is comprised in my district, and it was farmed, two years ago, by a tithe farmer; he paid, I am not sure whether it was five or six hundred a year, but I believe it was five hundred; he complained at first, that he lost by the contract, and I believe he got some compensation from the clergyman; but I have reason to believe, that he recovered the full amount of what he agreed to pay, and a considerable profit besides; he let the tithes to the people; took notes for the payment; in consequence of the badness of the times, he complained to the clergyman that the people were unable to pay; he got then a reduction or a remission of part of what he was bound to pay; I believe he afterwards recovered the full amount of the notes from the people.

Will you state the amount of the sum ?-I think that he received 100l. or 2001.

That is but a proportion of the parish which you have?— That is a small proportion of the parish; then there is the parish of Abbeystrowry; that is a vicarage, formed by lay impropriators; there are eighteen plough lands in that parish, of which twelve are in my district; there are two or three plough lands of a parish called Aghadown in my district, because they are all inclosed by natural boundaries in my district. The parish of Tullagh, with the exception of an island, called Innisherkan, is in my district.

Is there another rector in that division of your parish ?— There is a Protestant rector and a Protestant curate.

Will you state what the amount of their revenue is ?—I believe in the parish of Abbeystrowry it is worth 500l. a year to the lay impropriator; and then the other parish to the rector, I believe, may be worth 400l. a year.

That is Aghadown?-I have only a small proportion of Aghadown; in the whole of the district over which I am, the tithes are about 1600l. a year, at the present reduced rate; but it was a great deal more than that during the war.

Can you inform the Committee, what the amount of your property is, as clergyman?—I ought to observe, that Mr. Hughes, the rector of the parish of Creagh, when a proposition was made to introduce the new bill, would not take less than 8001. a year. During the war the emoluments of my parish, between my coadjutor and myself, might approach 300l. a year; two parts were the property of the parish priest, and the third part the property of the coadjutor; since that, in consequence of the depression of the times, the receipts between the coadjutor and myself do not exceed 240/.; some years they have been less.

魯

You have stated the proportion of Protestants to Catholics, is as one to fifteen; do you mean in that district!—Yes.

What may be the number of your parishioners ?—I think they approach ten thousand.

From what sources is your income derived ?-In the first place we get from every farmer in the parish, at Christmas and Easter, two ten-pennies, making 3s. 4d.; many of the farmers, in consequence of the badness of the times, have not been able to pay us; and then we are paid something on the occasion of marriages, from 10s. or 15s. up to 31. or guineas; christenings average about 3s. 4d. each, when they they are paid; sick calls are not paid for, generally; I am now eighteen years a clergyman, and I could undertake to say that, during that time, I have not received 41. for attendance on the sick.

Do you receive any thing on confessions?-At the periods, confessions at Christmas and Easter, the 3s. 4d. are paid by the farmers, but this is not paid in consideration of confession; but we go about through the villages in the country, we attend a day in each village, where the people meet us, and that is the occasion of paying their Christmas and Easter dues; but whether they confess or not, it is considered that they are bound to pay, and many come to confession who pay nothing.

What is the usual and average number of people married in your parish?-In my parish, I have had some years sixty marriages: the year before last, they were about thirty-six; and at Shrovetide this year, I had forty marriages; then I expect there may be about ten or fifteen more in the course of the year. What is the usual rate you receive on marriages?—That depends on the circumstances of the parties; some are so poor, that they pay nothing.

Is there no fixed or stipulated rate of payment?—It depends upon their circumstances; that is, from poor farmers we expect a pound or a guinea: from persons a little richer again, a guinea and a half or 40s., and from the very richest of them, 31. and three guineas.

What is the highest amount you ever received upon a wedding?-Thirty guineas.

What class?-A gentleman of large fortune, a man supposed to be worth 10,000.

Is it not the habit to make a collection upon a marriage ?— In the diocese of Cloyne it is, but in the diocese of Ross, where I reside, it is not. I have received 201. at a marriage, in Castletownroche; there were twenty farmers present, who paid 201.

That practice does not prevail in your parish ?-It does not, nor ever did.

When it has come to the knowledge of the priest, that an illicit intercourse has taken place between two parishioners of the lowest class, is it not the common practice to recommend that they should be married?-It would be the duty of the clergyman to do so; but it has often happened that persons professing themselves to be Roman Catholics, and applying to me, or other clergymen, circumstances may exist that would render it our duty to refuse to marry them; and in that case they sometimes resort to the Protestant clergy, and are married as a matter of right. The Protestant minister cannot refuse; for instance, a young couple may, without the consent of parents, wish to get married; I refuse to marry them without that consent; they go to the Protestant clergyman, and get married.

Do you mean that it is the practice, under those circumstances, to apply to the Protestant clergyman, they being Roman Catholics?-It has been the case very often.

They being Roman Catholics?—Yes; for instance, according to the laws of our church, the children of brothers or sisters cannot be married; I refuse to marry them. They have only to apply to the Protestant minister, and he is bound to do so.

Do they not incur your displeasure, as their pastor, to a certain degree?-They do; we cannot administer the sacrament till they do penance, and conform to our laws.

But they invariably do return to your church? They always do; it very often happens that persons wish to get married without the consent of parents or guardians, and we refuse to marry them.

Is not one considerable source of emolument to the Catholic clergymen that of praying for the repose of souls ?-It very often happens that pious persons will desire a clergyman to celebrate mass for the repose of their souls, and leave a bequest, or give donations for that purpose; but it very rarely occurs in country parts, and forms scarcely an item in the property of the clergyman. I do not think it has ever been 37. in the year to me.

Luna, 14° die Junii, 1824.

LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,

IN THE CHAIR.

The Rev. Michael Collins again called in; and Examined.

In what state are the chapels of the Catholics, in the county of Cork?-In general they are in a very bad state, they are too small in general for the congregations that resort to them; efforts were lately made in some places to build new chapels, upon a scale more suited to the number that required them, but the poverty of the people, and the pressure of other demands for the established church, has rendered the progress of those buildings slow indeed, and in some instances they have failed altogether, for a time. I have myself an old chapel, in the town of Skibbereen, in such a state, that I daily fear some accident may occur whenever the people are assembled in it, in consequence of the decayed state of the roof and the wall; it is altogether too small for the congregation, so much so, that more than one half of the congregation are obliged to kneel in the yard, or on the highway, under the open air, and they cannot hear the instructions of the priest; I made an attempt to build a chapel upon a larger scale, and in a more eligible situation; I had no means but a half-penny collection on Sunday, at the chapel, from the poor as they went in; a great number of the people going there have not often the means of paying a half-penny, they are consequently excluded, and lose the benefit of religious worship and religious instructions; however, after a continuance of exertion since the year 1818, we have raised 4 or 500l. with which we commenced a chapel last year, and we have succeeded only in raising a part of the walls; we are going on very slowly, and do not expect to have the walls finished this year, for want of means; I have some idea of applying in town here for aid.

What number of persons did the old chapel accommodate?— I do not think it would accommodate more than 1000 persons. How many attend the service? We have two masses in the chapel, and at each mass about 2000 persons, or more,

attend.

So that more than half of them are obliged to be in the open air?-More than half, and a great many stay away rather than be in the open air; the old, and the infirm, and the delicate.

Do many of them stay in bad weather?-In bad weather they must stay away.

Do many of them remain in bad weather, often?-Of those that come, a great many must stay outside, because if any number exceeding 1000 comes there, they must remain outside.

Is it the practice of many to remain outside during severe weather?—It is; you may see them in severe weather, and under the pelting of storms, with their hats off, kneeling in the mud.

Is the description you have given of your own chapel one that may be applied to other chapels in the county ?—I think it may, generally; but in our district we have a greater number of poor than in many other places; as an illustration of that, I would observe, that the whole number in my district does not exceed 10,000 souls, and in part of that district, that is the part adjoining the town of Skibbereen, there were, in the summer of 1822, more than 6000 paupers on the charity list; and in the other part there were nearly 3000 paupers subsisting upon the charity received from England in that

year.

Were those people wholly destitute of employment, and of the means of providing money for the purchase of food?They consisted partly of poor farmers and partly of poor labourers; the poor farmers, in consequence of the pressure of rents, were, early in the year, obliged to send to market their wheat and oats, and other grain; the amount of these did not pay their rents, the crop of potatoes had fallen short, and they had no means of subsistence in the latter part of the summer, they were obliged to resort to public charity; the poor labourers had no employment whatsoever, and they were obliged to subsist upon public charity. I have a note of the number of families and individuals in the town and county, taken from the poor list at the last return, in 1822; in town there were 790 families, consisting of 2889 individuals, in the county 715 families, consisting of 2234 individuals, the whole making 1505 families, containing 6123 individuals, and that only in part of a district under my care; the population in the whole district does not exceed 10,000.

In other times of scarcity, when relief has not been sent from England, how have those people been supported?—The farmers generally raise as much potatoes as support their families; in summer they have a little milk (sometimes some of them have no milk); they have a little milk or fish; but through the winter, they must, in general, eat those potatoes without any accompanying food.

Merely with water and sait?-With water and salt.

Have they no fish upon that coast ?-Wherever an opportu