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condition of Ireland would be better, in case of such a restoration. I felt, I must own, very much grieved, when I saw sentiments to that effect expressed by some of the leaders of the cause.

You thought it would be mischievous to the cause of the Roman Catholics ?-No; I thought that the repeal of the Union would be attended with great mischief to the country. Do you think that is the feeling of the Roman Catholics generally ?—I do.

Then why do they not disavow what is expressed by the Association, which affects to speak in their name ?--I was not aware that the Association had expressed those sentiments.

Have not a great many Protestants expressed opinions of the expediency of reforming the church, and reducing the temporalities of the church in Ireland?-I have understood so.

Have there not been a large body of members of Parliament voting for such a measure?-Certainly.

May not, in your opinion, a considerable reformation take place in the administration of the Protestant church, without at all affecting the security of its establishment?-I think so.

Might not, also, the temporalities of that church be placed under a different distribution without affecting the security of the Protestant religion ?-I think they might.

Is it not possible, that such a reformation, and such a distribution, might essentially serve the cause of the Protestant religion?-I think it might.

In any views you take, or the Catholics generally take of those subjects, you take them as common subjects in the country, in common with the Protestants ?-Certainly.

If Catholics have expressed opinions that more extensive reforms are wanting in Ireland, besides the repeal of the penal code, are there not abuses with respect to magistrates, grand juries, and other public affairs, to which that opinion, as to extensive reform, may be applied ?—There are.

If the effect of the new tithe laws shall ultimately be to make the payment of the tithe the business of the landlords, so that the Catholic occupiers of the land may be relieved from tithe, will they concern themselves much about the benefit the Protestant clergy will derive from the new tax that will be paid in lieu of tithe?-I believe the greater part of those who occupy land, if they were relieved from the pressure of tithe, would not care who received it, if the tithe was paid by the landlord and not by the occupier.

Then all soreness of feeling, and all hostility that may exist in the minds of Catholics with respect to tithes, would be

done away by changing the manner of payment, making that payment either a payment by the landlords or provided by substituting land in place of tithes?—I do not see if the burden was placed upon the landlords, that it would remove all cause of complaint on the part of the occupiers with regard to tithe; but undoubtedly if land was substituted, all cause of complaint would be removed.

Are you not aware, that the Tithe Act provides, that in all new leases made in a parish, where it is brought into operation, that the tithe is to be paid by the landlord ?-It makes such a provision; but how can you prevent the landlords from throwing the tithe upon the tenant?

If the effect of the change shall be, that it shall not throw it upon the tenants, but that it shall become a tax upon land purely, and that the reservation of rent to be paid by the tenant shall be a fixed sum, having no connexion with the tithe, will he not, under those circumstances, be completely relieved?—If the tithe is absorbed in the rent, and the rent not increased beyond the true value of land, he will be completely relieved in that case.

Will not the tithe so payable by the landlord, be in the nature of a tax on rent, and therefore wholly payable by the landlord, and by no means possible to be paid by the tenant? -If the thing could be so contrived that the tithe must be paid by the landlord without falling on the tenant, the tenant can have no cause of complaint.

Do you think it is possible that can be done?-I think it very difficult.

Supposing the burden of the tithe were in any shape to be thrown upon the landlord, would not then the tenant have to pay him an additional rent ?—If the tenant's lease were previous to the enactment of such a law, the tithe would fall upon the landlord during the lease; but at the expiration of the lease, I cannot see how it could be left on the landlord without being transferred to the tenant.

Do not you think that if in any way landlords were to take upon themselves the payment of the church, leaving it to their tenants to reimburse them as to those tenants might seem fit, that it would go a great way towards removing the pressure that now prevails?—It would certainly.

Do not you conceive that the amount of rent which a tenant can afford to pay, depends upon the comparison of the produce of his land and the expenses which he has to incur? As a general proposition, that is true; but in the particular circumstances of Ireland it is not true, because the population of Ireland is so disproportioned to the means of employment;

that is, the population having no means of employment but agriculture, there is always more competition for lands than the due value of land would justify, the rents offered are generally above the value of the land compared with what they ought to be.

For a moment setting out of the question those excessive rents which arise from great competition, and taking only the general principle, a comparison of the produce on the one hand and the expenses on the other, is the criterion which would measure the amount of rent, supposing the demand for land not to be excessive ?-Yes.

Then do you not imagine that the tithe which the tenant has to pay, is part of those expenses which he sets against the value of the produce in calculating the rent he can afford to offer ?—Yes; if you can give a permanent character to the amount of the tithe.

. Then supposing that by any legislative enactment, it were possible to throw that tithe entirely upon the landlord, and absolutely to exonerate the tenants from the payment of such tithe, would not the tenant be able to give a higher rent for his land, than he could afford to have given for it before, because his expenses would be diminished, the produce remaining the same; there being therefore a greater surplus produce remaining after payment of his expenses, he could afford to increase his rent?-He would have a certain profit and certain surplus after paying the expenses.

Therefore the competition for that land which thus would give a greater profit, would lead to a higher rent being offered for it?-It would, I think.

Consequently, if the rent increased as the tithe was taken off, the tenant would appear to be in the same condition in which he was before? Yes, it comes to the very point which I was observing; I do not see how the tithe can practically be transferred from the tenant to the landlord.

Therefore you are of opinion, that no legislative enactment could practically relieve the tenant from the payment either of tithe, or of an amount of rent equal to the tithe ?-Except in this one view; the great grievance of tithe at present is, the precariousness of its amount, and the mode in which it is generally exacted; if the tithe could be made analogous to rent, fixed, and payable by the landlord, the landlord would be responsible for it, and the tenant would be considerably benefitted; it may unfortunately turn out, that the rent would be raised, but I do not think the rent would be raised to the full extent of the tithe.

Would not the same extreme competition, which now leads

a tenant to offer for any given piece of land more than its real value, equally stimulate him to offer an increase of rent equal to the amount of tithe taken off?-I consider that the landlords in general would see that it was not their interest to accept what the tenants might offer, inasmuch as they would see that the tenants could not pay it.

Does the landlord generally exercise that discretion now ?→ In many instances they do, but in general they do not, because the prices are in such a fluctuating state.

Would it not be perfectly fair for the landlord to accept an augmentation of rent, equal to the tithe that had ceased?-I do not see why he should not, if the amount of rent was fair before.

Ought not a part of those very high rents that are offered and paid by the lower classes, to be considered as a payment for the risk that is incurred, in letting that class of people have land, in addition to the payment for the rent of the land?—I do not see how it can be considered in that point of view.

Is not there a considerable risk in making that description of persons a tenant ?-Not a greater risk than if any persons had a rent laid upon them, that was disproportioned to the value of the land.

Do you conceive the rents imposed are settled by the landlords, by having any arbitrary power of fixing the rent ?Yes; in consequence of the number of competitors for land, the landlords can fix the rent.

Why do not they fix a higher rent than they now take?— They fix more than they are likely to get; and if they fixed a higher, they would not get it, but they would frighten their tenants away altogether.

Must not the rents be fixed by the prices at the markets?By the prices of markets, compared with the number of bidders for land.

Practically, have not the rents for land risen and fallen, as the markets have risen and fallen in Ireland?-They have, but not in the same proportion.

Is not the tithe tax that is fixed by the new Act, regulated according to the rent of the land, as well as the extent of it, that is relieved from tithe ?-I am not aware.

If a tax is imposed according to the rent of land, is not such a tax absolutely a tax on rent?-Certainly.

Then if it is a tax on rent, and if the rate of rent paid by the farmer for land is regulated by the price of commodities, how can the landlord make the tenant pay that tax? If the rent of land be fairly regulated, and always regulated by the

price of commodities, and the tithe becomes a tax upon that rent, of course it must be paid by the landlord.

Will you state whether you consider that the number of the Catholic clergy has increased in the same proportion with the population of their respective parishes?-There has been an increase in the number of Catholic clergy, but I do not think the number has increased in proportion to the population.

Then do you conceive that the duties cast upon each Catholic clergyman have considerably augmented of late years?-I do not believe that at any time there were an adequate number of clergymen for the performance of the duties, and they are still less adequate in proportion now than ever, in consequence of the increase of population.

Is not the deficiency in the number of Catholic religious instructors of the people felt as a great inconvenience, both to the clergy and to the people ?—It is.

Do you consider the number of persons that attend to the religious duties diminishes or increases ?-They diminish in consequence of the inability of the priests to attend to them

all.

In consequence of the inadequate number of the Catholic clergy, is it not difficult, if not impossible, in many instances, to exhort the people in the way of sermon after mass?—It is; because the clergyman may have to ride to two chapels which, are four or five miles asunder; after celebrating mass in one chapel, he must post away to the next, and after having done his duty there, there may be two or three sick calls waiting for him; he may have to baptize children, and he is exhausted from the labours of the morning, being the whole time without food in consequence of the discipline of the church.

Do you not attribute a considerable proportion of the diminution of the parishioners in attending their religious duties, to the want of sufficient means of exhortation in the way of sermon ?-I do, certainly; and the want of opportunity of catechising children, and giving them moral instructions on Sundays.

Is your parish co-extensive with that of the Protestant clergyman? My parish embraces a district in which three or four Protestant clergymen officiate.

What number of coadjutors do you employ in that district? One only; I have not the means of supporting more. Can you form any estimate, as to the value of the Protestant livings to the incumbents?-In my district there are nearly three or four Protestant livings; there is first, the

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