Did you ever hear as to ribbonism having been very extensive in the province of Connaught?—I heard it was so.

Do you believe that orangeism had been known or did exist in the province of Connaught at all, before the ribbonism?— I do believe it did exist both preceding and subsequently.

Is the Committee to understand that you consider the prevalence of ribbonism in the province of Connaught to which you referred, as attributable to the antecedent existence of orangeism in the same part ?-I am not at all acquainted with the province of Connaught, so as to enable me to speak distinctly upon that subject.

Have you ever heard that orangeism did exist in any and what part of the province of Connaught, antecedent to that system of ribbonism?-I do not know when either the orange or the ribbon system commenced in the province of Connaught; I am a long way from it, and have very little intercourse with it.

Will you specify any part of the province of Connaught, in which you conceive orangeism to flourish or even to exist? I have already stated, that I am very little acquainted with it; I have only the report that I may take up from the public press on that subject.

Will you specify, amongst those parts of the country of which you have been hitherto speaking, any one spot in which orangeism had existed, and in which you conceive it has occasioned the existence of ribbonism?-Orangeism did exist, to a considerable extent, at Mountmelick, in the Queen's County, and at Mountrath.

But not in Kilkenny ?-I do not think it has got much in the county of Kilkenny; there is a report that orange business is going on in the city of Kilkenny, and in other small towns.

Will you mention, whether Mountmelick and Mountrath are the seats of any of the disturbances, of which you have hitherto spoken in your examination ?-Mountmelick and Mountrath have been almost the scenes, of annual disturbance in the Queen's County.

You have been speaking to day of certain disturbances; have Mountmelick and Mountrath been the scenes of any of those disturbances?—Of those particular disturbances I do not say they have, they have been the seats of annual disturbance.

Have there not, for several years past, annually been disturbances, and sometimes sanguinary disturbances at Mountmelick, and sometimes at Mountrath ?-There have.

Were not those upon particular days in the year?—They happened upon particular days.

Will you mention the days?-The twelfth of July is gene

rally the celebrated day upon which those occurrences take place.

Is the Committee to understand, that the ribbon system prevailed generally throughout the year, in those places?—No; because I have already stated, that from all the information I have been able to collect, the ribbon system has got into neither the county of Kilkenny, nor the Queen's County.

Then, is the Committee to collect from your evidence, that in reference to the district of which you have been speaking, you think the orange system has got into Mountmelick and Mountrath only, and the ribbon system into no part?—I think orangeism has got into almost every town in the Queen's County, but those places are the grand depôt of them.

But that the ribbon system has not got into any part of the district of which you have been speaking?-Not to my knowledge. You have stated, that there was ribbonism in the county of Kildare, and that you derive that opinion from the titular bishop of Kildare's pastoral address; how did you derive that opinion; from that address, from the general reasoning of it, or from its positive assertion?-From his general reasoning, and from his cautioning the people against entering into such a dreadful society. I heard that they committed outrages, by impeding the canal boats; and dreading that the outrages would lead possibly to the production of that system, he felt it his duty to caution them against it.

He cautioned them not to enter into any such society?—He cautioned them against the evil of it, and he cautioned them not to enter into such association, or any thing that would make them riot; and, generally, to be obedient to the laws.

Does that state, that he has any reason to expect they had entered into such associations ?—I am not aware that he has stated that he had any reason.

Will you state to the Committee, in what instances, and in what places, to your knowledge, ribbonism has followed the establishment of orange lodges?-To my knowledge in no case; I cannot speak of my own knowledge.

In what place have you heard that ribbonism has followed the introduction of orangeism?-In the north of Ireland.

But not in any of the counties with which you are acquainted? -Not in the places of which I have been speaking.

Is not the disposition to believe in Pastorini's prophecies alluded to by Bishop Doyle in his address?—Yes.

Have you any reason to believe that the prophecies of Pastorini have been circulated in the districts of the Queen's County and county of Kilkenny, with which you are acquainted? -No reason whatever; and I believe they have not; I have

taken great pains to ascertain if I could trace them, and I could not.

You stated in the course of your examination, that it is your impression, that the body of the people do not believe the prophecies of Pastorini; upon what grounds is that impression formed?—I stated, that I believed that the body of the people do not believe in the prophecies of Pastorini, and I formed that opinion from hearing their expression to that effect.

In what county have you heard the body of the people express themselves to that effect?-I should not have used the term "body of the people ;" but those that I came into contact with in Queen's County and the county of Kilkenny.

Have you conversed pretty generally with the people of those counties upon the subject of Pastorini's prophecies ?—I have very often conversed with them, and endeavoured to get at what their opinions and feelings were, and I have found that they paid, generally speaking, no attention to them.

Have you found that they are acquainted with them, or that they are ignorant of them?-In general the people are ignorant of them.

Have you found any people in the course of your conversations, who have seen and read these prophecies? Yes.

About what number?-I do not recollect more than two or three.

Of the lower orders?—No, the better class.
Those persons disbelieve them?--Yes.

Is it your impression that those prophecies have not been in any degree circulated amongst the common people, in either the county of Kilkenny or the Queen's County ?-It is my impression that they have not.

What are the grounds of that opinion ?-Having made inquiry in every way, I could not find that they had been distributed among them.

How old are the prophecies of Pastorini ?-I hope I shall not be laughed at for saying I really do not know.

When were those prophecies first made current in Ireland? -I do not know.

Is it not within these two or three years?-I believe not.
The miracles, you say, are generally believed?—Yes.
By respectable Catholics?—Yes.

And the prophecies of Pastorini are not believed by respectable Catholics ?-No.

What is the reason of that difference in respect of the miracles and the prophecies ?-People have the evidence of their eyes and their senses of the miracles; but they do not see how the prophecies of Pastorini are at all connected with them.

How can people have the evidence of their eyes and their senses with respect to any prophecy of a future event?-If they see them carried into effect, they have both.

If the prophecy relates to a time that is not yet arrived, how can the evidence of our senses be at all applicable to such prophecies?—I have already stated my conviction, that the prophecies are not paid attention to, or believed.

You have already stated that the miracles are believed?— But not in consequence of those prophecies.

What is it that makes that difference, that the miracles should receive so much credit, and the prophecies receive so little ?— It is not an unusual thing at all, for that all-seeing Being, when it is His pleasure, to perform miracles; they are not a novelty; it has occurred from the earliest periods downwards.

Are not prophecies also from time to time given by that same Being; is there any thing more extraordinary in a true prophecy than there is in a real miracle?—No, I think not in a true prophecy.

Can you give any other reason why the miracles should be treated with so much respect, and the prophecies with so little? -They are not held as prophecies.

That is the fact; what is the reason of it ?—I am sure I do not know how I should answer that question; but that I know they are not held as prophecies, and the church does not sanction them.

Has the church given her sanction to the miracles?—Yes, I believe so.

The church has not sanctioned the prophecies?—I never heard of it.

Do you believe the reason why the miracles have been so generally received is, that the church have sanctioned them, and that the prophecies have, on the contrary been rejected, because they have not the sanction of the church ?—I do believe that the reason why the miracles are so generally believed in is, that they are so extremely well authenticated by those who believe in them, and by respectable members of the church.

Do you believe that if Dr. Doyle had published a pastoral letter in which, instead of treating the prophecies of Pastorini as contemptible, he had sanctioned them, and given them credit, that they would have been generally believed in Ireland? -I believe that they would not, nor the act of any one individual, without the concurrence of the whole church.

Have you known any other miracles received in your part of the country previous to those that have made so much noise?-Not within my time, but the one in the Queen's County.

Do you mean the recent one?-I mean the case of Miss Lawler.

Did you ever know of any miracle previous to that?-No. Or in any other part of Ireland?-No.

Did you know Miss Lawler's family!--Very well.

Have you conversed with members of that family upon the subject of that event?-I have.

Are there not parts of the penal laws that are considered very inconvenient to Catholics, even in respect of their property?-Certainly; they are considered very inconvenient in every respect.

Must not a Catholic, before he is able to purchase land, or even bequeath it by will, or in short do any thing that gives him a right over property, take oaths that are called qualification oaths ?-I am not aware of that circumstance.

Is the Committee to understand you to say, that, generally speaking, the Roman Catholics believed in this miracle of Miss Lawler ?-I do believe they did believe in it.

Do you yourself believe in it ?-I do; I do believe that the young woman was restored to the perfect use of speech, after being deprived of it for years; I know the fact to be so, and that solely and purely through that great, powerful, and Omnipotent Being that performed the miracle; and that the prayers of the young woman, the prayers of those that were acceptable, may have had some effect in producing it, but the act was from God alone.

What instrumentality do you consider Prince Hohenlohe had in that?—I do not know of any except the prayers of people imploring the Father of Mercies to restore the young

woman.

Do you believe that effect could have been accomplished without the intervention of Prince Hohenlohe ?-Certainly I do.

That it was not accomplished by any human means?—No. With respect to prophecies, although you have not been able to trace the dispersion of those prophecies in the Queen's County, have you any reason to believe that they have been actually dispersed and circulated in other parts of Ireland ?— I have not.

In Doctor Tuohy's address, he makes use of these expressions, "I have reason to know, that even under the pretext of religion, the poor credulous people are led astray by these wicked advisers, telling them prophecies of wonderful events to happen in the years 1822, 1823, and 1824;” does not that refer to Pastorini's prophecies ?-I really do not know; I never read them; I am not aware what prophecies he alludes