more sensible of the remaining humiliation, whilst the party that enjoyed the monopoly of power, felt exasperated at lessening this monopoly, and seemed anxious to preserve the remainder, by insulting and persecuting the Catholics.

Then why should the removal of the remaining disabilities tend to lessen that exasperation of which you have last spoken? Because on the one hand, there could be no motive or means for persecution, the remaining monopoly having ceased, and on the other hand, the natural operation of the human mind would be to forget past sufferings.

You do not propose any thing more than that the Roman Catholics should be qualified to get power?-Nothing more. Might not the Protestant still have the means of retaining possession of that power?-I do not think he could, because the wisdom of government would frustrate that.

You have drawn a comparison between the number of Roman Catholics in Cork, who are eligible to serve upon grand juries, and the number who are actually appointed to them; do not you think the same comparison might be instituted, as to the actual appointment to offices; supposing the Roman Catholics were declared eligible to certain offices, do not you think the same comparison would be drawn, with respect to the actual appointments to office?-It would be entirely with the government to make the appointments, and if they were not fairly administered, discontent would be excited; but I presume they would be fairly administered.

Do not you think, that as much discontent would exist, if being eligible, they were not actually appointed, as now arises from their being actually ineligible?-No, I do not think so; because the exclusion by law is a sort of stigma affixed upon the front of every Roman Catholic; he is excluded at present, because he is excluded by law; but being legally eligible, he could have no just cause of complaint; if some Catholics were not appointed, it might be referred to individual incapacity, or other reasonable grounds.

The cause of complaint is not the mere loss of emolument or power of office, but the distinction which the ineligibility for office creates, between a person qualified to hold it, and a person disqualified?—Yes; it is partly both; but principally the unjust distinction which the law creates between Protestant and Catholic.

Then why do you think the Roman Catholic would be perfectly satisfied with a state of law which excluded him from the great offices of the state; in answer to a question, you said, that "if the Roman Catholic was admitted into certain offices, he would not be dissatisfied if he were not admitted

into all;" supposing those few great political offices from which the Roman Catholic remains excluded, had actually the appointment to all the remainder, do not you think that exclusion would still imply some distrust in the Roman Catholic? No, I do not think it would; because the Roman Catholic would be reconciled to it from the great state necessity that would induce it.

What is the state motive?-With regard to the empire generally; the act would be founded upon the general interests of the empire.

In what way do you think the interest of the empire would require the exclusion of Roman Catholics from certain great state offices?-Because the people of the empire might not be satisfied, nor might deem it compatible with the constitution, as it exists, that Roman Catholics should be admitted into these high offices of the state. If that was the general feeling of the people, the Catholics would be satisfied to be excluded from those offices.

Would the Roman Catholics admit that the impression of the people of England was a just one?-I am not prepared to say that they would admit that it was a just one, but the people of England having that impression upon their minds, the Catholics would be satisfied.

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Supposing that the people of England had a general impression that it was for the general interest of the country, that they should continue to labour under their present disabilities, would the Roman Catholics still remain satisfied?— No, for this reason; that in their minds those disabilities are so palpably and obviously contrary to the first principles of justice and policy, that they would not believe that the people of England could think it necessary, for the general interests, to continue them, they would not be satisfied.

Why should not the Roman Catholic contend for admission to all offices, however high the trust?-Because, under the present constitution of the empire, the attainment of that does not appear possible; such a change might produce a convulsion in the empire, and therefore the Roman Catholic, being under the influence of moral motives, would be satisfied with a state of things which it would be morally impossible to change. Speaking metaphysically, he may be discontented, but for all practical purposes, as a person under the influence of moral impressions, he should be content and satisfied, rather than risk a convulsion in the state, because the evil of submission to that would be so very little, compared with the evil of disturbance, that he would rather submit.

He would be content with eligibility to office, satisfied that

those offices, which have the appointment to all other subor dinate ones, namely, the high offices of the state, should remain in the hands of Protestants?—I do not say all the high offices of the state. I can point to offices of the state that I think they might be admitted to. The King is essentially a Protestant by the constitution of the country, and as the chancellor is supposed to be the keeper of the King's conscience, he must be equally a Protestant; but with the ex. ception of the King and the chancellor, I do not see any other office to which they might not be admitted.

What do you think of the office of the Lord Lieutenant ?I think he might be a Catholic.

Administering the whole of the church property of Ireland? -If he happened to be a Roman Catholic, he might delegate to a Protestant chancellor the administration of church pa tronage.

And the same with the chief secretary of the Lord Lieutenant; you would think it proper to provide, that in case the chief secretary should be a Roman Catholic, that another officer should exercise the church patronage ?-Yes, on the same principle as Roman Catholic priests protest against the interference of Protestants in the appointment of Catholics to the cure of souls; on the same principle we would disclaim any interference in the appointment of Protestants for the cure of souls.

Do you think when the disabilities were removed, that the Roman Catholics, as a body, would acquiesce in the present ettlement of church property?—I am satisfied they would.

In practice, have you found that there is dissatisfaction excited in consequence of the Catholics not obtaining the benefits conferred by the Acts of 1793, with respect to admission to the offices which they are entitled to hold under that Act? -Yes, considerable dissatisfaction is entertained.

To what do you attribute their not being admitted to those offices in any degree whatsoever, compared with the Protestants, and with the number of Catholics who are capable of holding those offices ?-To the exclusive predominance of that party in Ireland, hostile to Roman Catholics.

Do you believe that the reservation of those offices, to which Roman Catholics are at present not capable of being admitted, does contribute in fact to prevent a fair admission to those offices, which they are qualified to hold under the Act of 1793? -I do believe so.

The Catholics are aware, that very considerable concessions were granted by the Act of 1793?-They are.

That they were rendered eligible to a certain number of

offices by that Act?-They are; but I think a great proportion of the Catholic populace are not aware of the actual extent to which the penal code has been repealed; for instance, they are not generally aware of the late Act respecting their admission to offices in the army, because those things have been done by piecemeal.

Is there a full confidence among the Catholics in the intention with which these Acts were passed, with respect to the conferring favours upon them?-I think that confidence is very much lessened by the events that have occurred since; they think that persons have got into power, who were hostile to them, who have endeavoured to impede the good effect of that Act of conciliation and justice as much as possible, and have defeated the benefits, with respect to Catholics, that might be derived from it.

In fact, it is not the general opinion, that the intention of the legislature has been defeated?—It is.

Have you any reason to doubt, that the Act which admitted the Roman Catholics into all ranks of the army and navy, has been fairly acted upon ?—I have no opinion upon that subject, either way.

You have no reason to doubt it?-I have no reason to doubt it.

And yet the Roman Catholics are not aware of the existence of that Act?-A great proportion of the populace are not aware of it.

Although they are become eligible to hold any office in the army, yet, in point of fact, it has so little affected their situation, that they are not aware of their eligibility ?-It is since the peace that that Act passed; if there was a war they would be aware of it, but there has been no opportunity for their being made aware of it.'

Was not that Act passed without much public discussion? -It was; I thought it was introduced in a clause in the Mutiny Bill, till I heard from a gentleman, the other day, that it was a special Act.

Does the circumstance of no Catholic having been appointed to the assistant-barrister's office, produce much dissatisfaction?-It does.

Is it a matter of common observation, that very few Catholics have been appointed to offices since the year 1793 ?It is; for instance, no Catholics have been admitted into the corporation of Dublin since that, very few Catholics have been appointed into high situations in the revenue, and no appointments have been made to the office of assistant barrister, the commission of bankruptcy, and other situations.

What do you call high situations in the revenue ?-Such as commissioners and collectors; there was one commissioner and only one collector a Catholic, they were appointed, I heard, under the administration of the Duke of Bedford.

You are of opinion, that supposing the political distinctions were removed, there would be no cause of animosity between Protestants and Roman Catholics remaining ?-I am.

Do you believe in the miracles which have been performed? -As a Roman Catholic, I am at perfect liberty to believe or disbelieve.

Do you actually believe?—I believe in some, and in others I disbelieve.

You believe there has been of late a decided manifestation of God's favour to the Roman Catholic church ?-I think that, under the pressure of temporal persecution, Almighty God has supported and encouraged His church in Ireland.

Do you not think that the circumstances under which those miracles were, in your opinion, performed, show a decided manifestation of God's favour towards the Roman Catholic church ?-It might be a manifestation of favour for the purpose of confirming the wavering in their faith; many Catholics thought that they might be deserted by the Providence of Almighty God; they do not doubt that it was a manifestation of divine favour, to confirm them in their faith.

Do not you think that the result of those miracles must be a decided impression on the part of the educated and uneducated of the Roman Catholic community, that God's favour was manifested in behalf of the Roman Catholic church ?—To such of the Roman Catholics as believe it has that effect, to such as do not believe, and there are a great many of them, both amongst the ecclesiastics and the laity, it has no effect.

Do the lower orders, who have heard of them, generally believe in them?-The lower orders generally believe; but they have never been proposed as matter of faith, nor have they been proposed in that authentic way, which would render it imperative upon Roman Catholics to believe.

Still, practically, there is a general belief in them amongst all classes who have heard of them ?-I cannot say amongst all classes; for instance, in my part of the county, at least a hundred and twenty miles from the place where they were operated, there is not a general belief, nor even a knowledge of the facts. I heard, that in Leinster it is very general, and that confidence in God's Providence is in proportion. I read the vouchers published by Doctor Doyle and others, and I must own I thought I saw a strong testimony in those vouchers; I could not account how they occurred.