really would not undertake to say; I never turned my attention to that point; there is a Mr. Roche of Ahaddir, who has got a good property; I do not know whether he is on the grand jury.

That is a very lately acquired property?—There are very few Roman Catholics in the county of Cork that have had an hereditary patrimonial property; with the exception of two or three, there is Mr. Rochfort, he lives near Kinsale at Garristown, two brothers, Coppingers, Mr. Barry of Lamelara, Mr. Deecy of Clonakilty, and Mr. Goold. There have been Protestants appointed upon the grand jury that have not, as I have heard, three thousand a year, nor one thousand a year, nor five hundred a year.

With respect to Mr. Rochfort, in the first place, does not he frequently serve upon grand juries ?-I have seen his name upon grand juries.

Mr. Coppinger, of Barryscourt, frequently attends ?—I have

seen his name.

Mr. Barry, of Lamelara, have you seen his name upon grand juries?-Yes, I have.

Mr. Roche, of Ahaddir, he is a person of very lately acquired property; a man who had been very low in life?—I do not know what his situation in life formerly was.

Did you ever hear the fact, that he had been a shoemaker? -I did.

When did he acquire his property?-During the war. Are you acquainted that it is more a funded than a landed property? I believe he has got a landed estate.

Very small, compared to his funded property?—Yes. Mr. Deecey is a person of lately acquired property?—Yes; he is a man of excellent education, and enjoys an estate, purchased by his father, I think, of two thousand a year.

Has he never been summoned to attend grand juries ?— Never.

Does Mr. Deecy rank, in fact, with the gentlemen of the county who usually attend grand juries ?—I do not know. He would be considered a gentleman, and no one can deny he is a gentleman, both in education, in manners, and in every other reasonable qualification; he is received in society as a gentleman.

Will you be so good as to name those Roman Catholic gentleman of the county of Cork, whom, like Mr. Deecy, you conceive to be qualified in point of character, and in point of property, to sit on the grand jury, who are excluded from the grand jury?—I am not prepared to name any others, because I really am not acquainted with them.

Then why are you under the impression, that the Roman Catholic property in the county of Cork is not fairly represented on the grand jury ?—I did not state that I was under any such impression; the question was put to me, and it did not seem to me to arise from any thing I had stated before.

Then you have no reason to believe, that in the selection of the grand jury in the county of Cork, the Roman Catholic property is not fairly represented on the grand jury in that county? There is more property diffused amongst the Roman Catholics than we are aware of, and than is represented there.

The question does not refer to the merchants of the city of Cork, or the property acquired in trade; the question refers to that property that is generally represented upon the grand jury, landed property?-There is more property diffused among the Catholics than is represented there; because, if you have the Catholics represented in proportion to the numbers, you will find the number of Roman Catholics having moderate property much greater than is supposed to be. There are Protestants upon the grand jury that have considerably less property than Catholics who are excluded; and, as Catholics ought to be represented in proportion to their number and property, I would say they are not adequately represented there.

According to the principles upon which grand juries are selected in the county of Cork, and the other counties in Ireland, is not a fair selection of Roman Catholics made ?-The whole number of Roman Catholics upon the grand jury is only as three to twenty-three; I will not admit that the Catholic property is to the Protestant property in the county of Cork, only as three to twenty-three.

You have been asked, as to the number of Roman Catholic gentry resident in the county, whom you conceive to be competent to act as grand jurors, how many should you think?— I could name a great number of gentlemen of moderate properties, I have only named four or five; if I got an hour to consider I could collect a great many; but I never have turned my mind to these points; I am not prepared, upon the emergency of the moment to state a great many.

When you say you will not admit the property of the Catholics to be as three to twenty-three, do you not admit that the proportion of Protestant gentlemen, qualified to sit on grand juries, exceeds twenty-three to three ?-I can neither admit nor deny that.

Did you ever observe that on the list of the county of Cork grand jury, the eldest sons of gentlemen, who perhaps are too

old to attend themselves, and the brothers of gentlemen who cannot conveniently attend themselves, are frequently sent as representatives of the head of the family and the property ?→ Yes; and the agents too sometimes; there is a Roman Ca-/ tholic gentleman, whom I may name, the agent of a great property, Mr. Leahy, he was never summoned so far as I heard.

He served in the city grand jury?—Yes; but I never heard of his serving upon the county grand jury.

Lord Cork's property lies in the city ?—And a great deal in the county.

Mr. Leahy is the agent of Lord Cork ?-He is.

Are you not aware that in the county of Cork, and other counties adjoining, it is the practice not to allow agents to represent the proprietors of soil upon grand juries?—I thought from what Lord Ennismore said, that it was done.

In a former part of your examination, you stated cases that happened at Bantry and Skibbereen, in which Protestants of very small property had been put upon grand juries, when Catholics of much larger property had not been put upon grand juries, what grand juries were those you alluded to, and were they sessional or assize?-Quarter sessions.

Do you consider yourself competent, from your knowledge of the general state of the county of Cork, to give satisfactory information to the Committee, with respect to the returns of the grand juries ?-No; I do not consider myself competent to speak on that at present.

You stated in a former part of your examination, that you were of opinion that if the penal code was repealed, all remembrances of it would be obliterated in the course of ten or twenty years, is it not your opinion that the mere repeal of that code would remove at once the cause of the evils that now exist in Ireland, in respect to Catholic disabilities?—I know it would remove at once the cause.

. Then you do not mean to say, that it would take so long a period of time before a considerable effect would take place in improving the state of the country ?-No; I should think the operation would commence immediately; it may be slow.

Will you explain in what way you think it would come into operation, and why so long a time would be necessary to give it full effect? In the first place, the Roman Catholics would feel that they were raised from the humble state in which they were, and would have more confidence in the laws; they would feel that they were placed upon a level with their Protestant fellow-subjects; they would feel that they had no longer a just cause of complaint of the system.

Do you conceive that the Protestants would not immediately abstain from that line of conduct, which at present gives offence to Catholics ?—I should hope they would; they could have no motive for continuing it.

Would not it take some time altogether to obliterate that feeling? It might take some time undoubtedly; the Protestant belonging to a certain party which was very obnoxious in the country, might feel some exasperation for a long time after the penal code ceased.

When you speak of the effect of the penal code, in debasing the mind of the lower orders, do you mean to say, that it produces a want of self-respect?—I do.

Does it diminish that feeling which is natural to every one, to better his condition ?-Certainly it does.

In your reading upon subjects of political economy, have you not found it stated that that feeling is the great principle of all improvement of the lower classes of people ?-Undoubtedly, they would not feel themselves so debased and degraded as they are at present, if the penal law was repealed.

Is not the want of that feeling necessarily attended with a great obstruction in the way of the improvement of the lower orders, for want of a general disposition amongst them to acquire comforts and to improve their habits of life, with regard to food and all the comforts and conveniencies of life? There is a great moral debasement and degradation arising from it, which renders them insincere, crafty, cringing, flattering, and disposing them to make professions that they do not feel; and I think they are more or less careless about the improvement of their condition.

Then the peasantry living under such circumstances, if the means of bettering their condition was placed before them, would they so readily make use of them, or so certainly adopt them, as if the political institutions of the country placed them upon a better footing ?-If the question means whether they would not be disposed to eat better food, and wear better clothes than at present, I should say they would; but, as to the moral means of improving their condition, I do not think they would avail themselves of them.

Supposing they were able to earn somewhat better wages, would they be more disposed to increase their comforts, or to expend them in gratifying their passions?-I think that at present, among the many other causes of the demoralization of the people, is the facility with which they can acquire the means of gratifying their passions, the cheapness of whiskey;

and I do think, that whilst that cause exists, they will be disposed to drink too much.

Considering only their acquiring the means of improving their condition, circumstanced as you describe them to be with respect to their feelings, and their debasement of mind and want of self-respect, do you not conceive that those means would not be applied to improving their comforts, but that they would be applied rather in gratifying their passions?—I do; they would be applied in gratifying their passions.

Have you considered, generally, the effect of political institutions in keeping a people in a distressed and very low state of existence, and in preventing them from making progress to place themselves in an improved condition, when the means of so doing has been afforded them ?—I think people under an improved state of political arrangement, have a greater interest in their future comfort, and in the comfort of their offspring, than they have under a degraded state.

1

Have you ever considered and reflected upon the effect of the British laws, in placing the lower orders of the people of England in their present happy and flourishing condition?—I have often ascribed it to the consciousness that the British people enjoy, of the real liberties and equality that exists among them.

Is it not matter of history, that the condition of the lower orders of the people in every country, mainly depends upon the political institutions they live under?—I think it is a sort of political maxim.

That in proportion as they are protected by the laws, and enjoy civil liberty, and are respected by the upper orders, and have proper feelings of respect for themselves, that they will use the best opportunities they acquire of improving their condition, by obtaining comforts, instead of giving way to the impulse of their passions ?-I do.

You have stated it to be your opinion, supposing the remaining disabilities under which the Roman Catholics labour, were removed, there would be no cause of animosity between Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland ?—Yes. Was not a great change made in the condition of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, by the Act of 1793 ?—Yes.

Have the feelings of animosity between the Protestants and Roman Catholics diminished since that period ?-They have diminished in some places, and increased in others.

Do you think they have diminished in proportion to the relaxation of the laws ?-No; in many places they have been diminished to such a degree only, as left the Catholics much