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and grievance?-Not at all; the church establishment is a temporal establishment, as connected with the constitution of the country; they have no jealousy on that score.

Do you sincerely believe that, generally speaking, in the minds of the Roman Catholic clergy, there is not any dispo.. sition to disturb or dispossess the Protestant hierarchy ?I do most sincerely believe it, and would make the most solemn declaration to that effect; I can undertake to say, that not a single Catholic clergyman in Ireland will contradict what I aver, that they, as Catholics, have no views whatsoever to the disturbance of the establishment.

You think there may be upon the minds of many persons, Protestants or Catholics, objections to the present mode in which the church establishment is administered?-There are many persons, Catholics and Protestants, who read books upon political economy, and who derive information on these points, not from Catholic writers, but from the most eminent Protestant writers, and who entertain opinions respecting the church establishment in Ireland, that it would be more consistent with the public good if that establishment were re duced; but with no views whatever of substituting a Catholic establishment, or giving any portion of the temporalities of the Protestant church to the Catholic church.

There are political opinions upon that subject, which Ro. man Catholics, as well as Protestants, entertain ?-In com❤. mon with Protestants, but not at all connected with their feelings as Catholics; none of those opinions emanate from any feelings or opinions connected with the Roman Catholic religion.

If the Protestant establishment in Ireland is at present exposed to any danger, do you think that it is from the part of the Roman Catholics, or from the part of the political economist, that that danger is to be apprehended ?—I consider that the Roman Catholics, as such, have nothing at all to do with the danger.

You understand, in giving your answers, that you are speaking alone of the church establishment of the Protestant religion in Ireland, as established by law, and particularly by the Act of Union? The Protestant religion, as established by law in Ireland, which is the established religion of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

And as such, no Catholic clergyman has the slightest dis position to derange that establishment?-Not the slightest; nor the least ambition to acquire any portion of the property of that establishment, nor to elevate themselves by its decline. If the measure of emancipation was carried, would the Ca.

tholic clergy, or the Catholics in general, have any idea of expecting that the Catholic bishops should be allowed to sit in Parliament? No, they have not the least; indeed the idea would appear ridiculous; I am convinced, that if there were a revolution in Ireland, that would separate it from this country to-morrow, the Irish people, though arranging for themselves a system of temporal support for their religion, would have no representative establishment for the Catholic clergy, nor raise them to any political honours; nor are they ambitious that their clergy should be raised at all in rank higher than they are at present; they wish to have them merely religious ministers.

Are there many Protestant peasantry in the part of the country where you reside ?-There are a good many.

Do you know what proportion they bear to the Roman Ca. tholic peasantry?-I think the Protestant peasantry may be as about one to fifteen in the country parts; in the town part they are more numerous.

You say those Protestants behave themselves with insolence towards the Roman Catholics?-There is not that exaspe rating insolence in their manner, but in their conduct and their manners; they betray a consciousness of superiority, which operates upon the Catholic minds.

You have also said that the Roman Catholics have an idea that those lower classes of Protestants have the privilege of committing crimes with impunity ?—Yes.

Does that arise from any instances of such impunity having occurred?-Instances have occurred, and it always happens that the Protestant peasant will have a much better chance of eluding justice than the Catholic. It is an opinion upon the minds of the Roman Catholics; I cannot refer to any parti cular instances at present, but I have the general recollection and impression upon my mind.

The impression prevails upon the minds of the lower orders? Yes.

Have you ever used any means to disabuse them of that impression? I have used means to disabuse them of the impression, that there existed no fixed rule of law, which, if duly administered, would render it unnecessary for the common people to resort to illegal means for the redress of grievances. I have endeavoured to propagate the opinion among the people, that such a rule existed, and to elevate their minds, and to lead them to rely on the laws that are in force. I have endeavoured to tell them that the Protestants are on a common level with themselves; but they conceive that the

Protestant must have more favour, and has more favour with those who are the ministers of justice than the Catholic.

They pay no attention to your explanations ?-Those explanations I do not give in public; it is only in my private communications with the people. In my public addresses, when there is any danger or apprehension of disturbance, I dwell upon the Christian duties, the principles of submission to the existing laws. I also dwell upon the claims which the government has upon the obedience of the people; and I refer them in like manner to the equity, and to the great kindness that Britain has manifested to their country. I also endeavour to convince them, that they are very wrong in general with respect to their Protestant landlords and neighbours; that many of them are practically kind to them, that they ought to rely on them, and that they must bear patiently evils that cannot be cured by violence, but may be cured by submission and Christian forbearance, on their part.

Your private exhortations, endeavouring to disabuse them as to the opinions they entertain with respect to their Protestant neighbours, do not produce an effect to counteract the impression that they have?-No, they do not.

You stated that the Roman Catholic peasantry have a lively recollection of the penal code, and the evils they suffered from it? They have.

They frequently refer to it?-They mention it in the traditionary tales of the history of their country; and those recollections are revived when any instance of abuse or violence

occurs.

Have you heard them allude frequently to the periods when that code has been relaxed?—Yes; they contrast the present days with what they were formerly.

Do they look with sentiments of equal gratitude to the relaxation of 1779, as with sentiments of abhorrence to the previous state?—They do.

You have stated that you have heard instances mentioned in which persecutions have been referred to by them; do you recollect instances in which they have mentioned the relaxations which have been made?-I recollect instances where they have compared their present condition with what they were formerly; and they ascribe this to the change of laws, as they regard the Catholics.

Do they use the word Sassenagh in your part of the country? Yes.

To what does that apply?-It has departed from its original meaning of "English" to "Protestant."

Is it used as a term of approval or reproach?It is neither one nor the other, the true meaning of it is Englishman; there is no Irish term for Protestant. They first knew a Protestant in the person only of an Englishman, and therefore they have identified it with him; nor have they any Irish term for Catholics, they say Catholicky in Irish; but when they contrast a Protestant with a Catholic, Erinech (Irishman) is the term for Catholic.

Have you any Irish name for Papist?-No term but Catholické.

Is not that rather considered a term of reproach to call a man a Papist, instead of calling him a Roman Catholic?In the mouth of a Protestant it would be a term of reproach. But not in the mouth of a Catholic?-No; then it is only used in irony or jest.

Have they any term for an Englishman that has become a Catholic? They say he was an Englishman, but he is now become an Irishman; but then in expressing those words, they have not the original ideas annexed to the words Sassenagh and Erinech; in their meaning it is "Protestant," and "Catholic," they forget the original meaning of the words, and they only retain their present signification.

Do you conceive the present disabilities of Roman Catholics affect them at all in any degree analogous to that in which they were affected under the old penal laws?—I believe they produce a moral degradation and abasement in their minds; they debase them below their proper level, in their own minds; it is a demoralizing effect that is produced.

How is that effect produced?-They look upon themselves as more or less aliens in their own country; as a degraded cast, having a privileged order above them; for instance, a Roman Catholic peasant knows that if he should have a son or grandson, that by chance would acquire learning or riches, let his talent and merits be ever so great, should he go to the bar, he must stop short after a certain course; he knows, that though his son may be a lawyer or attorney, he cannot become a judge, attorney-general, nor even a sub-sheriff of a county. He knows that, as a Catholic, he could not have so much interest with the Protestant sheriff, as a Protestant has in nominating jurors. I will give a practical illustration that occurred the other day, in appointing the quarter-sessions grand jury at Bantry; some Catholic persons of considerable opulence there, felt themselves aggrieved because they were excluded from the grand jury at that quarter-sessions; while Protestants, having no property but a halfpay of forty pounds a year, were put upon it, a gentleman

worth three or four thousand pounds in cash was excluded, and a half-pay officer (a Protestant) put upon the grand jury.

Did that occur in more than one instance; was there more than one person of very small property summoned to attend, and more than one Catholic of property excluded?-1 understand that the great proportion of the Protestants upon the grand jury, were persons of comparatively small property.

Do you know the names of the Catholics that were excluded?-A Mr. Connell was one of them. I will give another instance which occurred the other day at Skibbereen; I know a young gentleman, a brewer, who makes by his brewery from seven to eight hundred a year; I heard it complained of in his family that it was a hardship that he, being a Catholic, should be excluded from the grand jury, while other persons having very little property in the country were put on.

Were there any Roman Catholics upon the grand jury ?— Certainly there were.

Of property, or without?-Some without property, and some with it; but in this place, there appeared to have been particular interest.

Then the exclusion arose from the want of interest on the part of those excluded, and not from their religious opinions? No; but there is less regard cæteris paribus under equal circumstances paid to the Catholics than to Protestants, upon those occasions.

Do you conceive that there was no Protestant of property that had equal reason to complain of not having been summoned?-No, I believe not; I did not hear any complaint; all the respectable Protestants were summoned.

Do not you think it more likely that you should have heard the Roman Catholic complain, than the Protestant complain? Yes, it is more likely; but whether that was the effect of religious feeling or not, the impression upon the Catholic mind is, that it is the effect of religious feeling originating in political distinctions, whether it is intended or otherwise, it has the same effect.

If the due proportion of Roman Catholics were upon the grand jury, how can you account for the omission of one or two Roman Catholics being construed by the people into a wish to exclude Roman Catholics ?-The number of Catholics upon the grand jury was few indeed.

What is the proportion of persons of property in the county, Roman Catholics and Protestants?-If you abstract from the property those who have the fee in the land, you will find more acquired property among the Catholics than amongst the Protestants.

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