In the temper of mind which you have described, would they not be disposed very often to attribute the rise of any body who was a Protestant, to that circumstance, and to imagine that they were excluded from rising in the same way with him, when in point of fact they were not, when his rising had nothing whatever to do with his being a Protestant? That may occur; but they are fully sensible that there is no chance for them under the existing laws.

But still the chance might be for them, as well as for a Protestant? They are aware that they could not have a chance under the existing laws.

Do you think that this sensibility to this disqualification extends over all the Catholic peasantry of Ireland ?-Generally speaking, I think it does, according to the best information I have.

Has it been a matter of consideration with you, whether or not it does extend to all?-It has been a matter of consideration with me; the result of all that I know on the subject is, to believe they take a lively interest in all their affairs.

Is that an opinion you have formed from your own observation, as well as from your different friends that are acquainted with their feelings?—It is.

They would feel and value very highly, whatever went to adjust and assimilate the laws, so as to put all parties and sects upon an equal footing ?—They would.

Will you describe to the Committee in what way such a measure would have a practical operation ?-I think it would tend in a great measure to compose the minds of the whole of the people. I am not prepared to say that it would exclusively be a measure that would restore every thing to what is most desirable, but it would, I think, go a great way in doing so.

Would it not contribute to make the upper orders of Catholics satisfied, and to lead them to bring their influence to bear in contributing to make the lower orders more contented?-Certainly it would.

Would it not have a considerable influence upon each class of Catholics, such for instance, as the Catholic bar, the Catholic gentry, the Catholic farmers?—I think it would.

Would not rendering the Catholic farmers contented, with regard to their political condition, have a considerable effect in enabling them to lead the lower orders into more regular habits of obedience to the laws?-I think it would have a decided effect in making them exceedingly more anxious, of course, to see that the lower classes should be as obedient as they could make them to the laws.

Do you think that the measures that have been adopted for putting down disturbances have been successful in establishing permanently a better disposition on the part of the people?I am afraid not.

Have you any acquaintance with the disturbed districts ?—

Yes.

Have you been in them lately?—Immediately prior to my coming over.

Do those measures produce any soreness of feeling upon the people ?-It produces soreness, because the class of men, that I really believe has nothing to do with the disturbance, I mean the actual occupiers of the land, is made to pay the expense attending upon it.

Do those measures produce more than a temporary effect upon the lower orders, with respect to the peace of the country?—I can only speak my opinion as to that; I am afraid they only produce a temporary effect; while the power is over them, it keeps them tranquil.

Can you state to the Committee, whether the prophecies that have been circulated of Pastorini have produced any effect in the country with which you are acquainted?—The people laugh at them; nothing beyond that. The pastoral address of the Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese lately disabused them of any idea, that they might havehad of their truth.

What has been the opinion entertained with regard to the miracles in your country?-I think it has caused among the people a profound veneration for the Deity, to whom alone they attribute the working of miracles, not to men.

They believe that those miracles have been performed?There is a general belief, that, in certain cases, people have been restored.

You believe that those miracles have been generally believed amongst the Roman Catholics in that part of Ireland? -They have.

The miracles of Prince Hohenlohe ?-They do not consider them the miracles of Prince Hohenlohe or any man.

You stated, that the effect produced by the belief of those miracles, has been to give the people a more profound reverence for the Supreme Being; is that the only impression you believe it has produced?-I do not know of any other; it makes them more attached to the discharge of their religious duties.

Are not you apprehensive of this, that a particular interposition of Providence, a miraculous interposition of Providence, being believed by the lower class of people to have

taken place at this particular time, may be attributed by them to causes which connect themselves with the present disturbances and the present state of society in Ireland ?—I do believe it has not had that effect in my quarter of the country; I do believe it has not.

If you could put yourself for a moment in the situation of an uninformed and ignorant peasant; do not you believe there have been attempts made of late to excite those people to fresh acts of disturbance ?-I have great apprehension that it has been so; but I am not able to state that.

Do you not believe, that whatever may have been the original causes, that religious motives have been introduced?—I do believe not in either the county Kilkenny or the Queen's County; I never could find that religion had any thing to do with the disturbances.

Not even in the progress of it?---No.

Do you not believe, that persons engaged in those disturbances have been almost exclusively Roman Catholics?—I believe they have; I believe, the body of the people being Roman Catholics, that those persons are of that communion.

Do you not believe, that almost necessarily when those disturbances, from whatever cause, had been once produced, that religious motives must intermingle in their views?With respect to what happened to Mr. Marum, who was a Catholic, I do believe the death of that man was accelerated by his interference in taking the lands of the Mr. Steeles', who were of the established religion; and with that impression on my mind, I cannot think that religion had any thing whatever to do with that disturbance.

Do not you believe the object of circulating the prophecies of Pastorini was to induce the people to expect some disturbance in 1825 ?—I do not know how to form an opinion; I never knew any person of the least respectability who lent any assistance in circulating them, but on the contrary, they treated them with ridicule.

Do not you believe, that the persons who circulate those prophecies have some object in doing it ?-I believe they must have some object.

Do not you believe, that that object was to assist the disturbances that were expected to take place?—I cannot form an opinion.

Do you believe it was without any object?-I cannot suppose but there must be some object.

Has it never come to your mind to ask why those Pastorini's prophecies have been circulated?-I have constantly put the uestion to myself, and within the whole routine of my

district I never could find that those prophecies had any existence.

Do you not believe there is reason to apprehend that those prophecies have been circulated?—I have no reason to believe that they would be extensively circulated.

Nor any apprehension that they would? I had some apprehension.

To what do you attribute the Roman Catholic bishops having thought it necessary to address their flocks with regard to those prophecies?-I must attribute it to their having knowledge that the works were circulated to excite bad blood in the people; I must attribute it to that.

Do you think that those were false apprehensions on their part, or do you think they were well founded?—I do believe, in the county of Kildare, they were well founded.

Why do you suppose that particularly in the county of Kildare, which was one of many disturbed districts, those prophecies have had that effect?-It was there that I found the pastoral address of the bishop, taking notice of those prophecies, had been addressed.

The Roman Catholic clergy were so apprehensive that those prophecies of Pastorini might have increased the disturbance in the county of Kildare, that they addressed to them the pastoral letter; and you think yourself, that they must have supposed that the people in the county of Kildare were affected by those prophecies; then on what rational ground can you state, that the people in the county of Kildare should be affected by those prophecies, and the lower classes in the other parts of Ireland should not be affected by them ?-Because I have been repeatedly informed, that in the county of Kildare, what is called ribbonism, had found its way there; but I cannot discover that in other parts of Ireland it had prevailed. It was an association that, I understood, bound themselves by an oath. Whenever the system of orangeism sets up, the other begins; and when once they begin, no one can say where they end.

If in any parts of Ireland Pastorini's prophecies have at all connected themselves with the disturbances, do not you think that the belief of a particular interposition of Providence by miracles to have taken place in the Roman Catholic church at the same time might have operated to augment those disturbances, and to induce the people to give credit to the prophecies, and to think that something particular was about to take place at this particular time? If the Roman Catholic church, or any minister of that church, were to preach to the people, that those prophecies were valuable, that might be so; but when

I find them treat those prophecies with ridicule and contempt, I cannot believe that that is the case.

For instance, in the county of Kildare, where you think the Roman Catholic people were affected by those prophecies; do not you think, that upon the minds of persons so circumstanced, the belief that miracles were working at this day in the Roman Catholic church would operate very much to augment the effect produced by Pastorini's prophecies ?—If Pastorini's prophecies were at all sanctioned by the authorities of the Roman Catholic church, it would be so; but when I find them treated with disrespect, I cannot believe so.

Do you believe, that in the disturbed districts of Kilkenny, the people give credit to those prophecies, or do not ?—I do believe the body of the people do not give credit to those prophecies.

Do you think they believe that the present church establishment is likely to be permanent ?-That is a question very hard for me to answer; from all the knowledge I have of the feeling of the people, I have no reason to suppose that they have any expectation of the present church establishment being in any respect invaded or disturbed.

Do you mean to extend that answer to the disturbed districts in Cork, Limerick, and Kerry?-I am not informed but by the public reports, of what may be the condition of Cork, Limerick, and Kerry.

Do you mean to express an opinion that ribbonism exists in general only in those districts, where orangeism had préceded it ?—Yes.

You do not mean to make that observation general?—I confine myself to those parts of the country with which I am acquainted.

The Committee understand from you that there is no ribbonism in Kilkenny ?-I do not believe there is.

There is no orangeism in Kilkenny? Very little.

Is there in Kildare ?-I cannot have a knowledge of it. In the Queen's County ?-I cannot have a knowledge of it. The Committee understand from you, that you thought there was ribbonism in Kildare?-I stated the reason upon which I formed that belief.

Have you any knowledge that there was orangeism in Kildare? Unless by public report.

Can you have knowledge upon the subject?-I cannot. Then do you or do you not attribute ribbonism in Kildare, to there having been orangeism ?-My reason is, that whereever orangeism raises itself to a certain height, there I believe associations of ribbonism find their way immediately.