there were a priest, who required a Catholic parishioner to give up those books, if the Catholic parishioner retained them, approving thereby of the doctrine contained in them, we would not subject a priest to any penalty for withholding sacraments from that man, for it would appear that he was adopting that doctrine, and separating himself from us; but if the priest required a man to give up those books, and the man said, I will uot, because I find some passages which are amusing, or some instructive, or my landlord gave them to me, and I will not go back with them; if the priest refused sacraments to a man acting thus, we would reprimand the priest, and leave the man at peace.

The only case, in which the priest could be justified in withholding the sacraments, would be that of a suspicion on his mind that the person retaining them was a separatist from the church of Rome ?-Precisely so, or becoming one; on that ground only. I read every kind of book myself, and should be glad that every Catholic had an improved mind, and were sufficiently educated to be able to read every book; and then I should be glad if they read every possible book; but the ignorant people are very easily seduced by a plausible statement.

You stated that some notes to the Rheimish and Douay Testament had been expunged; do you recollect on what account they were expunged?—They were expunged on this account, that they seemed to favour a spirit of persecution in our church, of persons who differed from us in religious faith.

Do you think it necessary or desirable, that in any notes which are retained in those translations, anything more should be done than stating the grounds of your difference with the established church? That is all I would ever wish to see in such notes; that the note would state what we conceive to be the true meaning of the text, leaving every thing on the other side entirely out; for we do not wish so much to confute what we conceive the errors of others, as to inculcate our own doctrine.

Do you consider it desirable any note should be expunged which you consider as reflecting uncharitably on other religions? -Undoubtedly.

Do you know that the doctrine of exclusive salvation in the Church of Rome is preached in Ireland by your parochial clergy to their flocks?I think it is preached by the parochial clergy of every church in Ireland, as well as ours; so that in that I do not suppose there is any difference between one church and another. The doctrine of exclusive salvation is found, as expressly stated, in the eighteenth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the Established Church, I think, as in any of our

creeds: besides, that profession of faith adopts the Athanasian Creed, which also establishes exclusive salvation; so that I do not know of any church the ministers of which do not preach exclusive salvation in one sense or another; for it is in my opinion a doctrine common to every sect of christianity.

Is the pope's authority received by the Irish Roman Catholic church as supreme in matters of faith and morals ?-We recognise him as the head of our church, and therefore give him the executive authority. But that is limited by the sacred canons: he cannot create new articles of faith.

Are papal bulls received in Ireland?—They are.

For what purposes?-Suppose a bull, like that which is published in the pamphlet that was in the hands of a noble lord, wherein he makes a regulation that has reference to a sect of infidels, and also to the Bible Society; we received that, as I explained to your lordships, by translating it into the English language and giving it circulation: it is thus that we receive them. But we would not receive any bull that would trench on our rights as a national church.

Would it be objected to, that the publication of all bulls should be subject to the royal license?-Bulls are very seldom or never issued by our church; communications from Rome come in the form of letters generally. In writing a letter, there are two persons concerned, the person writing and the person receiving; and for us to engage to submit a letter of that kind to authority, without the concurrence of the pope, our doing so would, perhaps, not be consistent with the reverence we owe him, as the head pastor of the church; but at the same time, as far as I am personally concerned, and know of those communications, I should have no objection in the world that every one of them were posted at Charing-Cross.

Are they chiefly on spiritual matters ?-They are, almost exclusively that there is one which partakes more of a temporal nature, than any I have ever seen before, as it refers to the Bible Society.

How do you distinguish in all cases between a spiritual and a temporal interference ?—I do not think it is very difficult for us, at present; because those things that are of a spiritual or religious nature obviously regard the articles of our creed, as they are found in our profession of faith, or those moral actions of ours which might or might not be contrary to the commands of God. The temporal matters are either exclusively of a civil or temporal kind, or they are of a mixed kind. With regard to those of a civil or temporal kind, such as the old bulls of the pope, regarding the rights of princes, and such things; those are quite obviously not to be classed with things of a

religious or spiritual nature. Then there are other bulls, or other decisions of the court of Rome, which may be said to be of a mixed nature; such, for instance, as those which regard matrimony. In matrimony we recognise, as it were, two things; the one the civil contract, and the other the religious rite. The civil contract and all its effects we leave entirely to the civil law of the country where we dwell: and when we receive any communication from the pope regarding matrimony, we immediately understand it as appertaining to the spiritual rights of the parties concerned, and not at all as relating to the civil effects of the marriage, or the temporal rights which might accrue to the parties, or to their issue. I will explain the matter more fully by a case: Suppose persons related in the second degree of kindred were married; this marriage according to the law of the country is valid; and the bishop or the pope have a right to declare that such marriage is null and void according to the law of the church. Here then the rescript of the pope upon that subject would oblige us to think those persons as living in a state of sin, whereas the law of the land would recognise them as living in a lawful state. We would be obliged to recognise them as man and wife, according to the law of the land, and to maintain them in their rights; according to the law of the land, we would also be obliged to preserve the rights of inheritance to the issue of such marriage, whilst we consider this issue as illegitimate in the ecclesiastical sense, so that if a son of that marriage applied to us for ordination, we could not ordain him.

You would consider him as legitimate for one purpose, and illegitimate for another ?—Yes, just so.

Are not Catholics prohibited intermarrying with Protestants by the Council of Trent?-No; there is not a syllable about it in that council.

Is the discipline of the Council of Trent completely admitted by the Roman Catholic church of Ireland ?-No, it is not; in some places, for instance in the province of Dublin, we have not admitted the discipline of the Council of Trent, regarding marriages and other things.

Is the creed of Pius the Fourth, the creed acknowledged in the Irish Roman Catholic church? Yes, every Catholic admits that creed.

Does not the last article but one of that creed declare every thing done in that council binding ?-That regards faith, and not discipline. The French church never received the decrees of the Council of Trent regarding discipline; and in a part of Ireland such decrees are received, in another part of Ireland such decrees are not received.

By what authority are such decrees received in some parts of Ireland, and not in others? The mode of receiving the council is this: the bishops of the province assemble, and deliberate whether the discipline enacted at Trent would or would not be useful to their church. If they think it useful, they immediately publish a declaration, and cause it to be read by the parish priest in each chapel; and thus the decrees of discipline become published and have force. And if they think that such discipline of the Council of Trent will not be useful to their church, they separate and do nothing.

Do you consider the marriage of a Protestant with a Roman Catholic valid?-It is valid, in a civil and in an ecclesiastical point of view.

Have you never known a marriage between a Roman Catholic and a Protestant, solemnized by a Protestant clergyman, dissolved by a priest?-Never; it could not be done; nor by the pope, nor council, nor any authority on earth, unless there is a canonical impediment (which the difference of religion is not) intervening.

Did you ever know an instance of a marriage of that kind dissolved, by which the woman became an outcast? Never; it could not be done.

If a Roman Catholic and Protestant intermarry, and the children are brought up Protestants, does the Roman Catholic incur any censure?—No, never.

Have you never known the Catholic clergy make it a condition in a marriage between a Catholic and a Protestant, that the children should be brought up in the Roman Catholic faith? They advise it; it is in the nature of religion, that the ministers of it seek to make all the proselytes they can.

Have you ever known them refuse to perform marriages unless that condition were acceded to ?—I have; but if they should, the parties can go to the Protestant clergyman, who has equally the power of marrying them.

If the wife is a Roman Catholic, and the husband is a Protestant, and the husband converts the wife to the Protestant faith, what course do you pursue with respect to her?-The person who ceases to be a Catholic, ceases to frequent our assemblies, and we know no more of him.

Are you sure there is no prohibition of a Catholic intermarrying with a Protestant; or is it a fact that there is such a prohibition, and that it is suspended in Ireland?—There is no such prohibition arising from the Council of Trent; and I do not know of any such prohibition by any council, except by the Council of Chalcedon, celebrated in the fifth century; the canon of which certainly is not in use nor force; so that if an

individual choose to act so, he acts in virtue of his own authority, whatever it may be for. I think very few priests in Ireland know even of the existence of the canon, as we have but few canonists among our clergy.

In the year 1809 the late pope, by a circular letter addressed to his Italian bishops, distinguishes between oaths of active and passive fidelity to a temporal sovereign; do you hold any such distinction ?-We hold no such distinction with regard to a legal sovereign, such as ours is. But in order to remove such objection as might arise from the bare mention of such doctrine, it may be necessary for me to state to your lordships the occasion on which such declaration was made, as I recollect it. At the time when the pope had been violently taken away from his own dominions, and the French troops had taken possession of his territories, they endeavoured to compel the subjects of the pope to take an oath of allegiance. Many of the latter refused to do so. He was applied to by the bishops, in order to know what line of conduct they should pursue, as subjects; and he understanding well that he who has the power de facto cannot be resisted, desired that they would take the oath of passive obedience, that is, that they would not resist the usurped authority of Buonaparte during the period he might occupy their territory; but he would not allow them to take, or sanction their taking an oath, so as to disclaim his own rightful title to his territory, and acknowledge that of a violent usurper. If I were to suppose a case, where the king of Denmark made a descent upon Ireland, and occupied some of our towns, surely this descent and forcible occupation of our territory for a time would not free us from our allegiance to our lawful sovereign, though it would entitle us to remain quiet, as otherwise our heads would be cut off.

In the year 1813, Doctor Milner, vicar-apostolic in the midland district of England, in a paper entitled "A Brief Memorial on the Catholic Bill," dated the 21st of May, under his hand, declared that the Roman Catholic subjects could not conscientiously swear to defend to the utmost the Protestant succession of this kingdom, and they might swear that they would submit to it; do you hold such distinction ?-I do not; I believe that the Roman Catholic oath in Ireland has those words, “I have taken it with a good conscience, and will keep it, with the blessing of heaven, 'till my death."

Are you aware of the existence of any persons who hold any ecclesiastical or other high situations in the Catholic church of Ireland, who entertain a different opinion from you upon that subject?-Never one; I never heard of one who entertained a different opinion.