Are you acquainted with the letters which were published under the title of I. K. L. ?-I have seen them.

Do you concur in the opinion given in those letters of the established church in Ireland?-The opinions which I entertain with regard to the establishment are these; and as the letters alluded to are many, and they may contain opinions which might be misunderstood, I think it better to make myself responsible for the answer I here give, than for what is found written in those letters. The established church in Ireland I look at in two lights: as a Christian community, and as a corporation enjoying vast temporal possessions. As a Christian church, consisting of a hierarchy, and professing the doctrine of the gospel, I respect it and esteem it more than any other church in the universe separated from the see of Rome; but I do unquestionably think that the amount of property enjoyed by the ministers of that church is prejudicial to the interests of the established religion in Ireland, as well as to the interests of the country. I have, therefore, given to your lordships my feelings and opinions in those words most explicitly; and I believe that they are the same in substance as those expressed in the letters alluded to, if those letters be understood in the sense in which I understand them myself.

Do you entertain any objections to the establishment of the Church of England in Ireland, in the respect now adverted to, which a Protestant might not equally feel?-I do not suppose that I do.

Would the objection to tithes, as they now stand, be removed in any degree by giving admissibility to political power to the Roman Catholic laity?—Yes; I do conceive that they would be greatly removed.

In what way?-I conceive that the removal of the disqualifications under which Roman Catholics labour would lessen considerably those feelings of opposition which they may at present entertain with regard to the establishment, chiefly for this reason, that whilst we labour under the disabilities which now weigh upon us, we find that the clergy of the establishment, being very numerous and very opulent, employ their influence and their opulence in various ways in opposing the progress of our claims; and I do think, that if those claims were once adjusted, and the concessions which we desire granted, the country would settle down into a habit of quiet, and that we would no longer feel the jealousy against the clergy of the establishment which we now feel; because that jealousy which we do feel arises chiefly from the unrelaxed efforts which they have almost universally made to oppose our claims. We would view them then, if those claims were granted, as brethren labouring in the

same vineyard as ourselves, seeking to promote the interests of our common country.

How would tithes become the less objectionable, considering they are to be paid by a people chiefly engaged in tillage of land ?—I think if the present Tithe Composition Bill were universally adopted, or a compulsory clause inserted in it, and the tithe levied by an acreable tax, that would excite infinitely less discontent than exists at present. I would state one cause of that opinion to your lordships. I hold myself about a dozen acres of land, which I employ in rearing a little hay for my horses, and feeding two or three cows for my household. I have one field of about three acres which ran to moss ; and my steward told me it was necessary, for the purpose of rendering it useful, that it should be broken up. I hesitated long to do so, because I should thereby subject myself to a heavy tithe. If the matter were regulated by tax, that apprehension would not prevail in my mind, and I would not hesitate to improve my farm. I will mention another instance. I was walking in one of his meadows with a farmer who held a large tract of land, and which meadow he had neglected to mow. I asked him why so much grass was left upon the surface. He stated, that he left it there for his cattle to eat in the winter; for that if he had cut it and saved it for them, he would have been obliged to pay tithe. If, then, the Tithe Composition Act were enforced, neither of those objections would have arisen in our minds, nor similar objections in the minds of thousands of people in Ireland, who feel what touches them immediately, though they would be blind to what is remote.

Is not the payment of tithes to the Roman Catholic clergy enjoined by your catechism; specially enjoined before the year 1817, omitted in 1817, and renewed in 1819 ?—There are several catechisms in Ireland. I am acquainted only with that in use in the diocese in which I live; that was one drawn up by a late Archbishop of Cashel, of the Ormond family, and he translated it almost literally from a catechism that was in use on the continent; it was afterwards revised by the Catholic archbishops of Ireland and printed. There are several editions of the Catechism which was originally published by Doctor Butler, as also of that approved by the four archbishops. The command of the church alluded to, which says, Pay tithes to your pastor," was a literal translation from the original; this was found to be a question or answer that might give offence, and it was corrected in the edition to which your lordships have referred. But I have never known, nor do I suspect in my mind -I am upon my oath before your lordships and before GodI do not know that it was ever thought of by any one that this

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command had reference to the payment of the tithes which we owe to the Protestant clergy as to be made to ourselves; it was always understood as only obliging us to contribute to the support of our pastors-an obligation which is derived from a much higher authority than that of the catechism of the church.

Is not that injunction now contained in the catechism circulated in England, under the authority of the vicar apostolic? I do not know; but I am quite sure, that wherever it is circulated, it is understood by our people as I have stated.

Is it not much better altered ?-It is much better; but we have no copyright in this catechism, and the printers in the country towns print them off without consulting us at all.

This catechism, you conceive, has not had any special authority from the church in its circulation ?-No, it has not.

Are you aware of any authority having been given for the renewal of this passage in 1819 ?—Not only am I not aware of any authority being given for its renewal in 1819, but I am satisfied there was no such authority given; and there is not any Catholic bishop in Ireland who will not watch carefully to prevent the insertion of those words.

Authority was given for leaving out those words?—Yes.
And no authority given for their re-insertion ?-Just so.

As you are aware that the Roman Catholic laity look for restoration of certain rights, which their ancestors formerly possessed, namely, seats in Parliament, &c.; do you conceive that the Roman Catholic church looks for a restoration of similar rights exercised by their predecessors ?-Not at all; we never thought of such a thing. The right of sitting and voting in Parliament is derived from the baronial title of the bishop in the established church, and not from his episcopal character; and we would think it destructive, (I would not use a weaker word) that any of our bishops should be admitted into the legislative assembly. It is a thing quite foreign from our thoughts. God forbid that it should ever enter into the minds of others.

You have said that you consider the ecclesiastical authorities and functions of the bishops confined to the church of Rome? -To the church in communion with the see of Rome; we do not recognise as lawful the mission or jurisdiction of any other church.

Entertaining those tenets, how do you conceive that a Roman Catholic ecclesiastic can recognise and engage for the maintainance of a Protestant ecclesiastical establishment?—I do not see any thing more easy than that, because the state in which we live has been pleased in its wisdom to establish a certain mode of worship, and to give certain immunities and privileges to the clergy of that establishment; this entering into the state as an

integral part, why should not we support the state which supports that establishment. I do not see, certainly, how that interferes at all with our tenets; but I view it just in that light in which I have placed it before your Lordships.

In the address of the Roman Catholic bishops to their clergy, published at the end of last year, and to which your name is affixed, it appears that you object to the possession of the bible by the Roman Catholic laity; does that apply to the bible attempted to be circulated by the Bible Society, or does it equally apply to any other version of the scriptures, such as that called the Rheims or Douay version ?-It applies to the version sought to be circulated by the Bible Society amongst us; and not to the Rheimish or Douay version, which is sanctioned by our prelates. That we have no aversion to the reading of the bible, and to the possession of it by the laity of our church, is best proved by the great many editions it has gone through in Ireland, under our express sanction; and to which editions there is affixed a rescript of Pius the Sixth, directed to a prelate in Italy called Martini, who had translated the bible out of the vulgate into the Italian language. We prefix this rescript of Pius the Sixth to our editions in English of the bible, in order to show, that not only we, but the head of our church is joined with us, in exhorting the faithful to read the word of God. We have not only procured editions of the bible; I believe three by Coyne, two by O'Reilly, and one by Cross (perhaps it is two); but this very year we have procured a stereotype edition of the bible, of a small print and low price, to circulate it among all; so that, of all the things said of us, there is not any thing said of us more opposed to truth, than that we are averse to the circulation of the word of God.

Have the editions which have been circulated of the Douay or Rheims translations been accompanied with notes? They have very short notes.

You think it necessary that notes should accompany the bible, for the purpose of explanation? In our country, where religious controversy prevails to such an extent, I do think it necessary that short notes, explanatory of the texts on which our differences turn, should be prefixed to the bible.

You consider yourselves pledged to all matters contained in those notes?—No, not by any means. On the contrary, there were notes affixed, I believe, to the Rheimish Testament, which were most objectionable; and on being presented to us, we caused them to be expunged. The notes carry, in our edition of the bible, no weight; for we do not know the writers of many of them. If we find them clear enough in explanation of doctrine, we leave them there; but whenever we find any thing

exceptionable we put it out, as we have done in the cases I have referred to.

But those published with the objectionable notes were published by authority of the bishops?The translation was made at Douay and Rheims, without our knowledge perhaps; and when we found it in circulation, and examined it, we found it to be correct, and then we approved of it; which approbation refers to the text, without the exceptionable notes, as stated in my last answer.

Have you in any instances allowed the circulation of the bible among the laity without notes I do not know that we have.

It appears, by this address, that you direct that all religious tracts, circulated by certain societies, shall be restored to their owners or destroyed, except bibles and testaments, which you direct to be given to the parish priest. Supposing that direction disobeyed, what are the consequences to those who may disobey them; are they visited with any consequences ?-Really I do not know that they are. I do not think we ever inquired into the disobedience or non-observance of what is there enjoined; for we are confident the people will do what we recommend to them in religious matters; and having promulgated what we think it their duty to perform, we leave the matter there.

Have you heard, or have you any knowledge, that the sacra ments of the church have been refused to those who have been in possession of such books, and have not delivered them up in consequence of the admonition ?-I have not heard of any such thing; before your lordships, and before God, I never did.

Could it have been done in any part of Ireland and you not know it?—I think it might, and I am quite assured there are amongst our clergy persons of so warm and heated feelings, as to do precisely what has been mentioned; but I have stated before, that I do not know of its having been done; that it might have been done, I am quite sure, considering the character of some of our young clergymen, and old ones too. We have got enthusiastics in all churches.

You would not think it a necessary part of Roman Catholic discipline that the sacraments of the church should be refused for disobedience to such an order?-Oh no, it is not a matter of that moment; it is a serious thing to refuse sacraments.

Or that they should be subject to penances?-No; it is a matter of quiet expostulation, not reduced to any thing like trial or punishment.

Would the priest, so refusing the sacrament, be subject to ecclesiastical censure, if his conduct were known?-Supposing