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the 40s. freeholders, for the direct advantage of the political influence they would possess if admitted to the enjoyment of equal rights? There may be some little clamour upon that subject, but it would be an irrational one, and, I think, easily put down. I am convinced the Catholics would very readily make that exchange, particularly as accompanied by all the other advantages that they would look to from a participation generally with the Protestants of power. I do not think there would be any difficulty in coupling that with the measure of emancipation; in my own judgment there would be none.

Do you not think that, in consequence of the present complete union existing among all the Catholics in Ireland, and in consequence of their being now under the guidance of men capable of appreciating the real benefit which would be derived to the country from the equalization of civil privileges, by means of that influence, those persons so seeing the real advantages of the measure, would be able to quiet any jealousies or animosities which might arise from the supposed change of the law on the part of the 40s. freeholders.-Without venturing to adopt any part of the question, which implies a complimentary expression, I have no doubt that would be easily effected by the persons who have been acting for the body at large hitherto. I know it would be very much their desire to do it; and I can answer that measures have been already taken upon the persuasion, such as there is, of carrying emancipation. I have reason to hope that those preliminary measures have met with success.

Do you not think that the 40s. freeholders themselves, or the lower classes in Ireland, would have a disposition to concede, even independent of the interference of the higher classes?-My opinion is, that down to the lowest class of the Catholics in Ireland, the emancipation is considered an object of value, for the attainment of which they would make sacrifices; and therefore, I think that the 40s. freeholders must participate in the general feeling on that subject, and would be ready to contribute to the general advantage, even at a loss to themselves.

Are you convinced, from your knowledge of the Roman Catholic body in Ireland, that the statements which have been made, that the question of Emancipation does not affect the feelings of the lower classes in Ireland, are unfounded?-I am quite convinced that they are unfounded; and many of the answers I have given shew that such conviction is strongly upon my mind. I would venture to say, that I know that statement is unfounded; the collection of the Catholic rent proves that pretty well.

Do you think that the objection which might be made to the raising the qualification from 40s. to 10l. would proceed from the person who now is described as the 40s. freeholder, or rather from

a middle description, the person who outrageously creates those freeholders for the purpose of disposing of them, and might be called a freehold jobber?-I am persuaded it would proceed very much from the person described as a freehold jobber; and that the excitation of the 40s. freeholders would be attributed, in a great measure, to such jobbers.

Under the present system, would not a freehold jobber, whose estate might let for 2,000l. a year, be able to get more votes than a person who had 20,000l. a year would have upon his estate, if that estate were properly managed?-Certainly; the freehold jobber whose estate might let for 2,000l. a year might have an immense number of votes without diminishing his rent at all; while a gentleman of 20,000l. a year might have a less number by managing his property as he ought to do.

Does not such a system then give a direct premium in the mismanagement of property ?-It certainly does; and there are complaints made even to the clergymen, of wretches being compelled to swear to a 40s. freehold where they cannot in conscience do it.

Is not therefore the present system of 40s. freeholds in Ireland liable to all the evils of universal suffrage, adding to it the evil of perjury?--I should think, that universal suffrage would correct the evil; and I am the less competent therefore from that opinion to answer the question; my opinion being, that universal suffrage would correct the evil, by taking away the inducement to jobbing, and the means of jobbing, and the perjury also.

You did not mean to say, that your opinion was, that universal suffrage was a good; but that it was preferable to the system stated?—Yes, I did. I meant to say, that my opinion, however erroneous it may be deemed, is, that universal suffrage, under proper regulations, would be a real good.

Do you think that the feeling of dissatisfaction under the present disqualifying laws is increasing among the Catholics in Ireland?-Certainly; increasing as the Catholics increase in wealth and numbers, which they are doing. The dissatisfaction is increasing very much, and as they become more intelligent; personally to myself, it oppresses me more from my success in my profession.

You are of opinion, therefore, that whatever evils may, up to the present moment, have arisen from the existing state of disqualification under which the Catholics labour, those evils must increase instead of being diminished, while the present laws exist? I am sure, that so far as the evils of Ireland are to be

ributed to the penal code, they must accumulate instead of diminish by the continuance; holding out, as they do, a temptation to a foreign enemy, and mixed with other matters rendering life and property insecure.

Is there any Catholic tenet whatever that renders a divided allegiance necessary in political objects, between the government

and any other foreign power whatsoever ?-Certainly not; the allegiance of the Roman Catholics, to be consistent with their religion, should be undivided and unconditional; that is, subject to no other condition than that which the law of the particular state directs it should be attended with.

You apply that to civil and political allegiance?-To any thing directly or indirectly civil or political; if allegiance be coupled with spirituality, certainly not with spirituality, because the spiritual head of the Catholic church is in Rome; but if he were to invade these dominions, or order any invasion, there is no Protestant would be more ready, or shew more decided zeal in opposing him, at every peril, than the Catholics, to the extreme of personal hostility, and to the loss of life.

Is there any difference, according to the Roman Catholic te nets, between the allegiance which a Roman Catholic owes to a Protestant sovereign, and the allegiance which he owes to a Catholic sovereign?-Not the least; they are precisely the same; unqualified as to all things temporal and civil, whether directly or indirectly.

In the case of a Roman Catholic sovereign or a Protestant sovereign, they are equally regarded as to spiritual points?-So equally, as not to have any exception whatever. In such case the King being a Catholic makes not the least difference; the King being a Protestant makes not the least difference.

Die Lunæ, 21° Martii 1825.

The LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair.

The Reverend James Doyle, D.D. is called in and Examined as follows*:

Have the goodness to inform the Committee in what manner the Roman Catholic bishops are appointed in Ireland ?—They are recommended to the Pope by the clergy, or some portion of the clergy of the vacant diocese, and this recommendation is generally accompanied by one from the metropolitan and suffragans of the province in which such vacancy exists; and upon this recommendation the appointment generally takes place. I believe in every instance.

Is the mode of proposing the candidate or candidates to the

The number of pages to which this volume has reached, has rendered it impossible to give more than a small portion of Dr. Doyle's evidence before the Committee of the House of Lords. The parts omitted chiefly consist of evidence similar to that given by Dr. Doyle before the House of Commons.

Pope, uniform in the different Roman Catholic dioceses of Ireland? In substance it is, but not in the detail; for in some dioceses there are chapters, in others there are none. Where there is a chapter, the persons to be recommended to his Holiness are generally, in the first instance, elected by the chapter, and afterwards the names of those persons so elected by the chapter are submitted to the metropolitan and suffragans; these latter concur in the election, by approving of the persons whose names have been thus submitted to them, or they make, in their communications to the Pope, such remarks about their character or fitness as may seem proper to them, and then the appointment succeeds. If there should be no chapter in the diocese, the clergy, who are called parish priests, assemble, and elect in the same form as the chapters do where such chapters exist; and there have been some instances where all the serving clergy of the diocese have been permitted to vote at such elections. I should observe, in explanation of what I first said, that the electors, whosoever they may be, elect not one only, but three; however, the person whose name is placed first among those three is, I believe, uniformly appointed by the Pope.

How long has this mode of nominating candidates to the Pope been in practice in Ireland?-To the best of my recollection, it has prevailed universally in Ireland since the death of the late Pretender.

Prince Charles Edward?-Yes.

In the interval between the Revolution and the death of the Pretender, by whom was the nomination made to the Pope ?-I do not know that there was an uniform rule; but I have heard that during that period, King James, after his abdication, and his son after the decease of the father, did often recommend to the Holy See persons to be appointed to bishoprics in Ireland. Previous to the revolution, by whom was the recommendation made?-Previous to the revolution, both in the time of the Tudors and the Stuarts, when Catholics, the recommendation was generally made in this way, that the reigning sovereign sent a conge d'elire to the chapter, and they elected upon that, and the nomination followed. The history of our church presents us with some cases where the chapter pretended to the right of presentation independently of the sovereign; however, I believe it was an established custom in the beginning of the reign of Henry the Eighth, that the election should be of the kind I have first mentioned.

Really by the Sovereign?-Yes, but in the mode I have mentioned.

By conge d'elire and the Sovereign recommending?—Yes. Do you know whether the recommendations of the Stuarts,

after the revolution, were universally attended to ?-When made I cannot say that they were not, but I believe they did not recommend in every instance.

Do you apply that to the grandson of James the Second, as well as the son?-Perhaps I should not be correct if I extended it to the grandson, without consulting books I cannot speak with accuracy.

That privilege of recommendation was not extended to Cardinal York?—I have never heard that it was in any case.

Was the mode of recommendation uniform from Henry the Eighth downwards ?-There was no Catholic sovereign but Mary after Henry the Eighth, with the exception of James the Second.

But in the case of James the Second, and the subsequent cases to which you have alluded, were the recommendations made in the same form as they were by Henry the Eighth ?-After the abdication of the Stuarts, I do not believe there was any regularity, because they, being in a foreign country, could have no communication with the chapters in Ireland, nor did those chapters always exist in Ireland; so I think, that during the period of their living upon the Continent, when applied to to employ, as it were, their influence at Rome, they recommended an individual as if from themselves personally to his Holiness, and that the appointment of such individual almost uniformly followed upon such their recommendation.

Are the Committee to understand that the nomination of a certain number of candidates to the Pope took place subsequently to the cessation of the privilege of nomination which had been allowed to the Stuart family?—I think so.

Can you state the manner in which the Catholic bishops of Ireland were elected during the time of Queen Elizabeth, James the First, and Charles the First ?-During that time our history shews that the appointments were made by the Pope, sometimes at the entreaty of a nobleman resident in Ireland, sometimes through this or that influence, but there was no uniform rule.

Are there instances of the issuing a conge d'elire by the sovereigns during those reigns ?—No, not one, to my knowledge; I do not think they ever attempted it.

During those reigns the Pope exercised a direct nomination?

-Yes.

Do you know by what authority the different modes of recommending candidates to the Pope in the different dioceses were established?-It grew up, I may say, gradually.

The candidates are nominated to the Propaganda, are they not; is not that the channel to the Pope?-The usual channel is through the Prefect to the Propaganda.

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