may not be quite so safe. The gentlemen thus circumstanced were educated while foreign influence, operating upon the Catholic mind, was checked by the natural anti-jacobinism, if I may use the phrase, of the Catholic clergy. The revolutionary tendency on the continent was, to destroy the Catholic clergy and the Catholic religion; and those who have been thus educated at present are all not only perfectly loyal persons, but if they have a fault at all, it is the exaggeration of that good principle. But I have reason to fear that there are means taking in a neighbouring county to educate a number of Catholic priests for Ireland; and there certainly is now no anti-catholicity in that country, but the contrary; and I feel it a sacred duty to say, that I look with alarm to the progress of that species of education, unchecked as it would be in future by enmity between the Catholic clergy gene rally, and the particular power to which I allude in the present instance.

Were any, or any considerable number of the present Catholic hierarchy educated in Ireland ?-Many were; I would say the great majority were educated in Ireland, according to my im pression. I know of my own knowledge, for example, the Catholic Bishop of Kerry, the Right Reverend Doctor Egan, was educated in Ireland.

Has any marked difference of character fallen under your observation, between that proportion of the Catholic clergy in Ireland that has received a foreign education, and that which has received a comparatively domestic education?-Those whom I remember as old men had all been educated abroad, and had naturally a tinge of jacobitism connected with them. In the reign of his late majesty that merged into unaffected loyalty to the present family; the family of James having become extinct. Those persons were not, I think, educated to purposes of so much mental activity and power as the Catholic clergy at present. The education of the former began at a much later period of life. In general they could not go to the burses, as they were called in France and foreign parts, until they had been actually priested, for the burses were not in themselves sufficient for their entire support; they must have the advantage of the payments they received for saying masses. They could not say mass without being priests; they could not be priested until the age of twentythree and some months. Up to that period they acquired no knowledge, but some classical knowledge of Greek and Latin. Properly speaking, their education commenced at twenty-four. The consequence naturally followed, that the period of great mental activity had passed before they could come into the practical employment of that education. At present, the Catholic clergy educated in Ireland are educated under very strict and

rigid discipline from a very early period of life, from that period when the desire of science is a voracious appetite to a person separated from amusements and business; and they have, in my knowledge of them, acquired a very superior degree of intelligence, and being most of them the sons of very low persons, they have astonished me by not only their manners, but by the classical facility and elegance of their style in writing. I would refer to some of the controversies on the distribution of the Bible, which have lately taken place, the published speeches of many of the priests are written (putting the argument of course out of the question) in a style quite superior to that of which the former class of clergy were capable.

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You have said that the present clergy are in general the sons persons of a low condition; what was the class from which the former clergy were taken ?—I do not mean to make a contrast in that respect; the former were taken from the same, or nearly the same class; I should think perhaps a little superior; but the difference not very great, and by no means for any public purpose could I say it would be essential.

In point of fact, were not some of the Roman Catholic clergy, educated abroad, the sons of gentry, whereas there are none of that class now?-Some of those formerly educated abroad were the sons of gentry; at present, several of the sons of gentry are educated at Maynooth. I have a nephew at Maynooth, and another very near relation, the son of a gentleman of independent means, who is letting the property pass to his second brother, and becoming a priest.

Were not those burses which you have mentioned the establishments in foreign colleges for the purposes of education, established by respectable middling families of the Roman Ca tholic persuasion in Ireland ?-They were established by Roman Catholic families, who claimed to be of high descent, and whose means were limited of course by various causes. The largest foundation in Paris was one made by my family several years ago, that would give us at present, if there had been no revolution, something more than twenty burses. My two brothers and I have three at present; it is regulated that the three prin cipal persons of the name in the county of Kerry should nominate to those burses. We have, at present, three or four establishments in the University of Paris; the young men we have sent there are not educating for the priesthood, but I am very much afraid, from some recent circumstances, that we shall not be able to send them in future any other than persons educating for the priesthood; in which case, if there be emancipation and another provision, I should think we should be very glad to dispose of the right to the French government. If at the peace this matter

had been known, it is probable those funds might have been easily transferred to this country.

What is the amount of those burses?-About 251. British a year was the income of each burse. The way in which they were established was by vesting a sum to accumulate in the French funds for a certain number of years, and then the accumulation to be left for ever hereafter at interest; with a portion of it, however, in the nature of a sinking fund; but being a fund always, accumulating, so that the number of those burses will increase.

Are you acquainted with the number of burses in foreign universities now remaining?-No, I am not; but I heard in round numbers that there were now educating in France, for Ireland, something about two hundred priests, not on Irish burses, but on means found by the Catholic church in France, or persons acting under the government; I have heard that estimated at two hundred ; of course, that is a loose estimate.

In what places?-In almost every part of France, certainly in various parts. Every bishop in France has endeavoured to have a diocesan seminary, and in various parts of France those exist; and my own apprehensions, with respect to the foreign education of the Catholic clergy, are founded principally upon the view of our continuing without what we call emancipation, the cause of discontent continuing; I should not myself be so much afraid of foreign education if we were emancipated.

Are there not many persons educating for the Catholic church in the Belgic provinces ?-I may be mistaken; I believe there are not. I know there were very many before the revolution; there were several establishments, both of what we call secular and regular clergy, before the revolution. Some of them may exist at present, but I do not know that they do.

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Do you mean, when you mentioned in round numbers, two hundred students, that they were natives of Ireland, or natives of other countries destined for Ireland ?-All natives of Ireland. do not believe the Catholic bishops of Ireland would knowingly receive any foreigner into the priesthood in Ireland at present, except some of the emigrant priesthood that suffered by the revolution, and that are still remaining; with that exception, I am quite convinced that the Catholic bishops in Ireland would not one of them receive a foreigner.

In what mode does the selection take place of individuals who are sent to enjoy the benefits of education in France?-That depends on the original constitution of the burse. In many instances the head of the family is described in the French grant or notarial instrument that regulates the nomination. In the instance of my family, it is the three principal persons of the

family and name of O'Connell in the county of Kerry; and our presentation, I may call it, is a right to be received in the university of Paris, unless there be particular objection to the individual. We consider in ourselves vested the right of presentation.

With respect to those who go over to the diocesan seminaries, how is the selection made ?-I believe there is no selection; that those who go there are supernumeraries, whom our bishops have not an opportunity of having educated, either at Maynooth or in their own diocesan seminaries; that that system of education is not encouraged, as I believe, by the Catholic bishops in Ireland; but having more subjects than they can educate, there is a surplus of them that go to France for education. Irish Catholic priests are in great demand; they are in demand in England; they are very much in demand in all the United States; they are in demand in Canada; in all the British colonies; and even New South Wales is claiming a portion of them.

How are they recommended by the Irish bishop to the bishop in France?-Merely by an exeat, consisting of a testimonial of good character; I know of no other. The person claims that as a right, if he has conducted himself with strict morality, and is competent in point of classical literature.

At what age are they sent over to those diocesan seminaries ? Young, certainly; that is, from sixteen to nineteen, or twenty, or twenty-one perhaps. In our burses in Paris we have put in very young persons; at present my family has none, but for secular education.

Upon the principles upon which you have been answering some of the last questions, and in the event of any regulation respecting the Roman Catholic clergy, do you think that a separate education for the Roman Catholic clergy would be an advisable thing to continue or not?-My own wish would be very much, that the Catholic and Protestant clergy should be educated in the same university. I think it would be a most desirable thing; and I think it would be one of the consequences that would follow very shortly after emancipation. There are mutual mistakes and mutual prejudices that would prevent its being done perhaps at the present moment, with the cordiality that ought to accompany it, in order to make it useful. It is matter of speculative opinion; but I am sure it would be very much the wish of the Catholic laity to see the clergy of the three principal persuasions educated in the same university, as it is very desirable that the laity of all persuasions should be educated together.

In the event of its being found expedient to extend the present system of education to the Roman Catholic clergy, with a view to the accommodation of great numbers, would there be any

great difficulty in connecting in Ireland a more extensive system of education in general science with that of theology?—No difficulty at all, if the government thought fit to grant sufficient funds for that purpose.

Are the Committee to understand, that that extension of the means of educating the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, which you state to be desirable, would not be desirable, if confined to the present system of exclusive education, such as prevails in the college at Maynooth ?—I did not mean to convey that idea at all. I should, from my opinion, be of the two more anxious to increase the means of Maynooth college, if there were not an equalization of civil rights, leaving to the combination of future events the mode in which the clergy of all persuasions should be edu cated in the same university. I should think it still more desirable, in the event of our remaining as we are, that Maynooth should be enriched, so as to take away the temptation and the necessity of foreign education, which I take to be dangerous principally in the event of the continuance of the existing order of things.

The question refers to the equalization of civil rights?—I think that the college of Maynooth ought to be increased; it being in my opinion desirable that the Catholic clergy should be educated at home, but the funds are inadequate.

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Do you think the establishment of a state provision for the Catholic clergy would produce any alteration in the character, conduct, and influence of the Catholic priests?-If the state provision were not accompanied with the equalization of civil rights it would not be accepted of at all, I take it; and even if it the effect of it would be to destroy the influence and respectability of the Catholic priests, in my humble judgment. În the event of the equalization, I do not think it would destroy their influence at all; I think that it would have some tendency to improve the character; but however mistaken I may be, my own opinion is very high of the general character of the Catholic clergy at present, and therefore I speak of improvement with diffidence and doubt.

From your knowledge of the feelings of the Catholic clergy, are you convinced that, as accompanying emancipation, they would be generally ready and willing to receive state provision?

I have not the least doubt upon my mind that they would be quite ready, as accompanying emancipation. I have as little doubt that they would be decided in their rejection if offered to them without the equalization of civil rights-what we call emancipation.

Do you think the Catholics of Ireland would be content to exchange the indirect political power they now possess, by means of