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heard in several places of the tithe composition act having been carried into effect with great advantage to the country.

. Do you apprehend that the carrying it generally into effect would remove the present hostility between the Protestant clergy and the Roman Catholic occupiers?-I do not think there is any great hostility between the Protestant clergy and the Catholic occupiers.

Do you think that the composition act could be amended or altered in any way, so as to come into more extended and advantageous operation?-Perhaps if the act should not come into general operation, a compulsory clause might be called for.

Do you think if it could be left to a good-will operation, it would be preferable ?—I would much rather leave it to its present operation, which appears to me to be giving satisfaction, and to be extending that satisfaction every day.

Do you think that the better feeling established between a clergyman and his parishioners, by carrying into effect this composition act, will very much facilitate the arrangement of all subjects of difference between the Catholics and the Protestants? -Every thing which tends to produce a cause of content, tends to produce satisfaction.

Do you not think that this season of general peace, when Ireland is deriving great improvement and advantage from the prosperity from the other parts of the empire, is, of all others, the most convenient time for carrying into effect a general set tlement of all subjects of difference between the two religions? -I think it is peculiarly favourable.

Should you not say, from your general knowledge of the world, and of persons of different opinions upon the Catholic question, that those opinions are verging to something like compromise, and that the question is considered more in a practical manner now than it ever has been at any former period?—I have had communications within the last few months in Ireland with several of the leading Protestants there, who have been adverse to the Roman Catholic claims, and I think they seem to be generally very anxious for a settlement of the subject, provided it could be settled on such principles as would afford them due security for that proprietorship ascendency which belongs to them; and of course for the permanence of the Protestan, establishment.

Is it not, as far as your knowledge goes, generally desired, by persons of both opinions, that some settlement-should take place, and that things should no longer remain in the state in which they now are?-I think that is very strongly the general feeling. I do think, too, that the Roman Catholics at this mo

ment are more disposed for a compromise than they were at any former period within my recollection.

What do you mean by a compromise ?-A settlement on such principles as I have ventured to throw out; that of raising the qualification for the franchise, the payment of the clergy, and some limitation of office. I think an exclusion from some political offices would not materially touch their feelings; that they would cheerfully submit to it, if the question could be settled in a way satisfactory to the Protestants. That the Roman Catholics are more desirous of having an amicable settlement than a triumph.

You mean that the Catholics are now disposed to give the Protestants substantial securities for the maintenance of the Protestant establishment, in lieu of that which alone the Protestants now possess in the Protestant oath ?-I think the Catholics are now disposed to give the Protestants substantial securities, instead of that which I consider not a source of security, but of danger.

Do you not think you have seen rather an increasing disposi tion in the Protestants to meet the Catholics in an arrangement of the matter?-Very much.

Do you think it possible for the other sources of improvement, which are now opening to Ireland, to produce permanent effect, unless the great question between the two religions should be speedily and satisfactorily settled?—I should think no more than healing a particular sore would go towards removing a cancer.

Do you think that the merely giving emancipation, unattended with other measures, would give permanent tranquillity? I think concession to the Catholics, coupled with raising the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise, and a provision for the clergy, would make the mind of Ireland sound, and would enable the government, by measures of general detail, by a good system of diet as it were, to give to Ireland the benefit of all the natural advantages which she possesses; but without such a settlement, the mind will continue in a state of disease, and that state of disease will perpetually shew itself in convulsions.

Do you think that any structure that can be possibly now raised for the benefit of Ireland, can be effectually permanent, unless what is called Catholic emancipation were made the foundation and corner stone?-No more than a system formed to preserve general chastity could succeed under a general prohibition of matrimony. The only way of guarding against the rising ambition of the rising wealth and intelligence of the Roman Catholics, is by affording it the means of lawful gratification.

515

Die Mercurii, 9° Martii, 1825.

The LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair.

Daniel O'Connell, Esq. is called in, and Examined as follows* :

As you have had opportunities of observing the course of the administration of justice in those parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted, will you state to the Committee the result of those observations?-I have had opportunities of course in my profession of observing the administration of Justice in those provinces; it is hard for me within the limits of a short answer to speak of the result.

What is your opinion of the administration of justice in the higher courts?—I have an extremely high opinion of the administration of justice in our Court of King's Bench, as at present constituted; I believe it to be as well constituted a tribunal as can be formed, recollecting that we have fallible men to deal with; it is in short admirably well constituted. I am bound to answer the question, though it is unpleasant. Our Court of Chancery is not so well, indeed it gives no satisfaction at all; and the dissatisfaction is perhaps increased, because the present chancellor succeeded, after a short interval, the best judge I ever saw, I mean Lord Redesdale, who gave extreme satisfaction as a judge. I have no hesitation in saying he was the best judge I have seen during my experience.

Have you observed in the administration of justice in the superior courts, any disposition towards undue partiality ?-In particular instances I have; but the apprehension of partiality is more occasioned by the kind of instruments that are used to bring jury questions to trial, than in the superior judges themselves; the city of Dublin is particularly constituted in that respect, especially in later times. There has been a great deal of party spirit; and no persons can now be sheriffs of Dublin that do not give a very unequivocal pledge, before their election, of taking a particular part in politics hostile to the Roman Catholics. Those gentlemen have the summoning of all juries, and the formation of all grand juries; and whatever may be the result in individual cases, it leaves a general impression upon the minds of the Roman Catholics, that their property, or, in cases of criminal offences, their lives and liberties are not secure. I know that that prevails to a very great extent; so that a Roman Catholic, the most cool and rational amongst them, and dispassionate as to parties, would rather submit to

*For the reasons before mentioned, in regard to Mr. Blake's evidence, the greatest part of Mr. O'Connell's evidence before the Committee of the House of Lords has been omitted.

great wrongs than attempt a trial in Dublin; and that, as I said before, originating with the species of persons who are sheriffs, and of the persons who are at the head of the special jury lists, for they place at the head of the special jury list the high corporators. An act of parliament that was proposed in the Lower House last sessions, would tend certainly, if carried into effect, to do away a great deal of that evil, in my judg

ment.

With the exceptions you have stated, have you, as a Roman Catholic barrister, any other ground of complaint against the superior courts in Ireland?-Not without entering into a consideration which I should wish to avoid, of individual appointments to the bench; the recent appointments have given great satisfaction. The effect of the present system is, that from the taxing grand juries, Catholics and liberal Protestants in Dublin are practically, though not legally excluded; practically against the law, I may say; and in all questions of property, the present system works infinitely beyond the opportunity of actual mischief in individual cases, by the kind of spirit of hostility and apprehension that such a system generates; and in all cases where political or religious feelings can be excited as to criminal matters, leaving the same impression upon the minds of the Roman Catholics.

Do you mean to say that any inequality in the administration of justice in the superior courts arises altogether from an inequality of natural talents and acquired knowledge in the different judges?-Certainly it does arise in part from the character of mind of each individual judge. In the Court of King's Bench, from what I have said already, every thing is done that any one can wish. I cannot say that of the Court of Common Pleas or the Exchequer; though there are individual judges in both, of whom I think highly, and whom I know to be well suited to their situations.

Have you any complaint against the administration of the superior courts at the assizes?-Upon the Munster circuit, which I have gone for a great number of years, very little. At present I find it more advantageous not to go the circuit; but 1 have gone for three or four and twenty years the Munster circuit, scarcely omitting a town. Difference of religion does not at all affect the administration of justice at the assizes in the county of Clare, and very little in the county of Limerick ; and I think I should be warranted to say not at all in the county of Limerick; in the county of Kerry not at all; in the city of Cork very little; but it does, I think, to some extent in the county of Cork.

What is your opinion of the administration of justice in Ire

land by individual magistrates?-My opinion upon that is certainly very unfavourable. It has been somewhat improved by the petty sessions; but even petty sessions themselves engender another species of abuse. The magistrates before the petty sessions were established had, as they have now, two separate jurisdictions; one was criminal and ministerial, the other was judicial; the criminal and ministerial related to the imprisonment for the purposes of trial or holding to bail of individuals; the judicial relates to the decision of tithe and other cases, and the infliction of pecuniary penalties for offences where the magistrate is judge and jury altogether under particular statutes. Now, with respect to the ministerial acts, the magistrates were very much in the habit of receiving written informations brought to them ready prepared, drawn up in general by some person who was sometimes a schoolmaster, and in general called a hedge-attorney, (that is, did not belong to the profession, but had the name), who put down the most violent terms that his knowledge of the law admitted; introduced felony and burglary into every case,-feloniously milking a cow, I recollect; and feloniously digging potatoes." " Then Then upon these informations the magistrates were in the habit of committing persons to gaol upon charges of felony, and they lay in gaol then until the ensuing assizes; sometimes three, four, five, and six months, and sometimes seven, between the Autumn assizes and the ensuing Spring assizes. Then, when the judges arrived, it turned out that the utmost the charge could be was a civil trespass, or some light misdemeanor; but the man had lain in gaol months. That was a thing of by no means unfrequent occurrence. They were also in the habit of turning almost all cases with respect to civil rights into criminal offences, and beginning by inflicting punishment, that is imprisonment; by sending an individual, who frequently was least in favour, for it came to that, to gaol.

Has not that practice been corrected by the appointment of petty sessions?It has been diminished, and diminished to a considerable extent; but if the magistrates are disposed to act wrong, they protect each other, by their being two or three in petty sessions, more than they would be protected if they acted individually; so that some evils are created even in that way, the remedy being in my humble judgment to get a better class of magistrates.

Do not you think they are frequently a check upon each other?-In some instances; and in many they are, because three, or four, or five, of the magistrates cannot well come together, that there is not some gentleman of superior station and disposition amongst them; and when there is one such, he will

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