wish for it. I think they would be very glad to get rid of tithes altogether, but that they would not wish to see them transferred to their own clergy; they would rather the Roman Catholic clergy should remain in their present state.

Do you speak of that as the opinion of the peasantry, or persons above them?—I speak of it as the opinion of the peasantry. They complain now of the dues which they have to pay to the Roman Catholic clergy; they sometimes consider them too well off. One of the complaints of the Ribbon-men, in the year 1820, was of the amount of the dues they had to pay to their own clergy; they complained of them in common with the tithes.

Do you think that an increase can take place in the wealth and property of the people, without increasing the feelings of discontent and of dissatisfaction created by the present state of the law?-I think the necessary tendency of an increase of wealth and knowledge at present among the Roman Catholics is the increase of discontent. The injurious operation of the disabling statutes is particularly felt by the men of property and education. Therefore, in proportion as men of that description increase, discontent must increase, and this not in the particular class only, but through the whole body, because such men constitute the influential part of society, and naturally give to the body to which they belong its general spirit and tone.

Is not the present unequal state of the law, with regard to Catholics and Protestants, felt to be injurious to individuals, and galling to all?-I should apprehend there could be no doubt that it is so felt.

What practical effect do you conceive to be produced on the administration of justice in Ireland, by the unequal privileges of Catholics and Protestants ?-I conscientiously believe, that the administration of justice in the superior courts in Ireland, with which alone I am acquainted, is as pure and honest as the administration of justice in any part of the world; that is my honest and conscientious opinion. But the state of the law with respect to the Roman Catholics, makes the multitude regard the general administration of justice with distrust.

Have you any information whether the Catholics have increased greatly in the acquisition of landed property of late years?—Yes, I have; upon several sales which have lately taken place in Ireland, Catholics have been the purchasers.

Do you not think it would be necessary to accompany a measure of state provision for Roman Catholic priests with some legal provision, which should make it illegal, perhaps prohibit, under a penalty, the exaction of some of the fees from

which the maintenance of the priests is now derived ?--I should think the object might be attained by a wise administration of the regium donum; which I would prefer to legal enactments.

Do you apprehend that the pope is in the habit of taking any measure for the purpose of obtaining any knowledge of the individuals recommended to him for bishops?-I apprehend not, otherwise than through a communication with the Irish Bishops.

Subsequent to such recommendation?-In some instances subsequent to such recommendation, that is, where there are rival recommendations; I apprehend not otherwise.

Do you really think that an arrangement for the payment of the clergy, would give anything like complete satisfaction to the Roman Catholic hierarchy ?-I should feel great difficulty in saying that any arrangement would give complete satisfaction to any body of men; but, speaking comparatively, I should say it would give to them very great satisfaction; as much satisfaction as the state, in any general arrangement, can in any case well hope to give.

And would probably produce content?—I am satisfied that it would.

Are you enabled to state, whether since the regium donum has been established with respect to the Presbyterians, it has been found expedient to withhold it in any particular instances? -I have understood in none.

Are you aware of any communication carried on between the Roman Catholics of Ireland and the pope, and the nature of it?

am not aware of any communication being carried on, except between the bishops and the pope; the nature of that, I believe, is purely ecclesiastical. I have heard the bishops declare, and have been solemnly assured by them, that they are forbidden to touch upon any matter of a political nature.

Do you believe that communication to be of any considerable extent ?-I believe not.

That it has reference to mere matters of necessary form?It has a reference to mere matters of necessary form; the Roman Catholics of Ireland are rather jealous of the power of the pope than otherwise.

Is it not the interest of the Roman Catholic church of Ireland to have as little to do with the pope as possible, and to connect themselves as much as possible with the established government, the government of the country?-I think it is.

Can you state whether, with respect to the power of the parish priest, as to confession and absolution, he does not consider himself bound to secrecy as to what may be communicated to him by the person so confessing ?-I apprehend so.

Does not that even extend to evidence in a court of justice?Certainly.

And to cases of treason?-To cases of treason; and the clergy of the established church, by the canons, are also enjoined to secrecy. I speak only of what the canons require of them. I allude to the 113th of the canons of 1616. I have heard the clergy justify the practice, by stating that persons cannot be prejudiced by their hearing of a crime having been committed, or of an intention to commit a crime; the only effect is, that they may prevent the intention being acted upon, or, knowing of a crime, endeavour to turn the heart of the person who had committed it.

Are you aware whether the pope derives any revenue from Ireland? I really am not; but I never heard it surmised that

he did.

Is the existence of the Roman Catholic religion in its present state in Ireland, of the slightest advantage to the pope in any way?-In point of feeling, he must be gratified by having so extensive a body as the Roman Catholics of Ireland in communion with the church of Rome.

But he derives no temporal advantage ?—I apprehend not.

In stating, that in consequence of the diffusion of education, and the opening of the professions to Roman Catholics, considerable wealth has flown in upon them, and that they have expended that wealth much in the purchase of land; has it fallen in your way, in the high office you hold, to know whether any objection is made by Roman Catholics to investing their acquirements in land on Protestant titles?-Quite the contrary; the great object in making out title in Ireland, is to trace it to a patent from the crown, and most patents were consequent on forfeiture.

Are you to be understood, that the general mass of Catholics so purchasing, do now hold under Protestant titles ?-Certainly.

Would the raising of the elective qualification materially diminish the influence of the priests over the voters at elections? -I think it would; and I think, in every view of it, it is a measure essential to the peace of Ireland.

Have the goodness to explain the manner in which that measure would operate ?—I think it would operate beneficially in various views of it, as connected with political power, as connected with the subdividing of land, and as connected with the want of a respectable yeomanry in Ireland. It would operate usefully, in point of political power, because it would give extended effect in Ireland, to what I conceive to be a vital principle of the British constitution, that property and not numbers should constitute the basis of political ascendency in the

state. It would operate to prevent multiplied sub-divisions of land, by taking away from landlords the temptation to such divisions, which the hope of extending political influence creates; it would tend to encourage the growth of a respectable yeomanry in the country, in the same proportion, and upon the same principle; because landlords who wished to have political influence, and who could only have it through a respectable class of freeholders, would be induced to promote the existence of such a class.

To what sum would it be necessary to raise the elective qualification, in order to effect these objects?-I am rather disposed at present to speak with reference to the principle, than to give a standard for regulating it. My own notion is rather aristocratical upon the point; I should be disposed to carry it as high as 207, a year. I have stated that in another place. I have since found, from conversing with many Irish members, that this was considered too high a qualification; that a 10%. qualification would be considered a more proper one to fix on. In my view of the subject, it is not so material to consider whether a person should have 10l. a year, or 20l. a year, as it is to consider the means of securing something like real independence; and if I could have a reasonable certainty, that the person who was to come forward and represent himself as à 10. freeholder, or even perhaps a 5l. freeholder, had really an interest of that description, I should certainly say, that raising it to 51. might be sufficient; but my fear is, from experience of the readiness of persons to swear to 40s. freeholds who have none, that you might find persons willing to swear to the extent of 51.; but I do not think they would be barefaced enough to come forward and swear to 201., or even to 10. To show why I think they may be thus willing, I would, with permission of your lordships, state some facts which have come to my knowledge. Part of my duty as chief remembrancer of Ireland is to attend to the accounts of the receivers in whose hands estates are placed by the court. Their accounts are passed before me. I have found various instances of arrears existing upon estates to a very considerable extent. In those instances, where it was stated to me that the arrears were occasioned by the land having been let at exorbitant rents, I have directed inquiries to be made, to see whether it would not be desirable to abate the rent, and to afford some relief with respect to the arrears. On those occasions I have had laid before me the affidavits of persons of character and of knowledge, to show me what the real value of the property was; and I have generally found that the property really was let at exorbitant rents, something worse than rack rents, and yet that the peo

ple holding at those rents have been induced to swear to 40s. freeholds.

Your intention would be to extend this arrangement respecting freeholds to Protestants as well as Roman Catholics?-I would extend it to all, and if extended to all, coupled with the settlement of the Catholic Question, I think it would give very great permanent satisfaction.

What effect do you think it would have upon the Protestant interest?—I am satisfied that it would not weaken, but strengthen the Protestant interest in Ireland; and I assure your lordships, that if I did not think it would have that effect, if I thought it would go to disturb the Protestant settlement in Ireland, not one of your lordships would disapprove of it more heartily than I should. The Protestant church in Ireland is a great link in the chain which connects Great Britain and Ireland together; and with the security of that connexion, I am satisfied the interests of Ireland are essentially identified. Now it appears to me, that the present state of the law in Ireland is founded upon an erroneous principle, taken with reference only to the security of the establishment. By the act of 1793, a formidable species of political power, the elective franchise was given to the Roman Catholics, subject to so low a qualification as to vest it in the lowest orders. Capacity for another species of political power, that exercised through a seat in parliament, was at the same time withheld from those Roman Catholics who possess property and intelligence, and in whose exercise of power most confidence may be placed. Therefore the proposed measure would not, as it is said, give political power to the Roman Catholics; they have it; but it would change the nature of the power intrusted to them. It would take away the power of electing from numbers, and give the capacity of being elected to property. By doing so, it would take from the nominal freeholders of 40s. a year, who may be turned against their landlords, or against the Church or the State, the power of being mischievous, and would give the Roman Catholic gentleman the power of being useful; for in proportion as a Roman Catholic gentleman be relieved from his disabilities, he is rendered capable of being useful to the Government. The present disabilities are injurious, not to the Roman Catholics only, but to the State; they disable the State from availing itself of the services which the Roman Catholic gentry could render it. One of our great wants in Ireland, is that of a resident gentry proportioned to the population of the country; a want which must be felt particularly with reference to the purposes of government, as the State has not a gentry sufficiently extensive to enable it through that gentry so to in