Against their landlord?-Against their landlord.

Do you mean without having obtained permission from the proprietor?-I think in some instances without his consent; but I think it is a matter of etiquette in general not to do so.

In point of fact, do you believe that the general class of 40s. freeholders in those counties exercise the right of franchise inde pendent of, or at the absolute dictation of, the person under whom they derive their leases?—I think, in general, they go along with their landlords; but in some instances they do not.

What is the general practice ?-I think generally they do.

Have you any doubt that, generally speaking, the tenants of an estate vote with the proprietor of the soil?-I know some instances where they did not, but I think in general they do.

Have you the least doubt that they are driven in to vote with out any consultation of them or of their disposition?--I have not. I think, in general, when they are called upon, they go along with their landlords without ever reflecting.

Have you the least doubt that they are called upon to vote without ever consulting them as to what their own disposition is, or informing them how their vote is to be given till they appear at the poll ?—I think that is the practice in general.

Do you think that that class of persons would feel injured or benefited, or that they would have much public feeling of any sort, upon that franchise being disallowed ?—I think each individual would feel no loss, but I think there would be a degree of dissatisfaction among the body at large.

Can you say from what cause or principle that would arise ?— They would conceive it was taking away so much from them, and there would not be wanting individuals who, from design, would be stirring up their minds to think so.

But if the great majority of the freeholders, such as you have described, are brought up to the poll, not only without any consultation of what their disposition is, but without any information even of the name of the candidate for whom they are to vote, till they are produced upon the hustings, do you think that such persons would feel that they were deprived of any political privilege? -They generally act with their landlord; they have the power of acting otherwise.

Will you state what the result of their acting otherwise would be upon the tenantry of any large property within your knowledge?—I dare say to incur the dissatisfaction of the landlord, and if they owed arrears of rent to press them for it.

Do you not think that perjury is committed to a very great extent in consequence of this system?—I do.

Both upon registries and upon elections ?—Yes.

Do you not think that any alteration of the law, which was to reform this system, would in itself produce a great improvement in the morality of the people?-I hope so.

You cannot doubt that the present system demoralizes them extremely?—I think it does.

Have you any doubt that a system under which perjury prevails to the extent you have admitted must of itself demoralize the country?-Indeed I think it is a demoralizing system.

The great mass of the 40s. freeholders in the part of Ireland with which you are acquainted are Catholics, are they not ?Generally.

Do you not conceive the effect of altering the franchise, and striking off the 40s. votes, as it is called, would be to impress upon the Catholic population at large a feeling that their religion had sustained a loss?-No doubt.

Would not the effect of it be that they would feel that the Catholic influence of Ireland was diminished ?--I think so.

Would not that be a great source of dissatisfaction that would be felt at any attempt to alter the 40s. franchise ?-There would be that dissatisfaction.

If the alteration of the franchise was accompanied by a measure advantageous to the Catholic religion, as by passing what is called Catholic Emancipation, do you not think that the satisfaction created by the one measure would outweigh the dissatisfaction excited by the other ?-Indeed I rather think so; I. think the one would be swallowed up in the consideration of the other.

Have you then any doubt that the Catholics, generally speaking, would be more gratified at the removal of what they consider a stigma upon their religion, than they would feel apprehensive at their deprivation of the 40s, franchise, such as you have described ?-I think so.

501

EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

THE COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

Die Mercurii, 2o Martii, 1825.

THE LORD PRESIDENT IN THE CHAIR.

Anthony Richard Blake, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows: *

You are Chief Remembrancer of the Exchequer in Ireland?

-I am.

Are you of opinion that the diffusion of education in Ireland, and the improvement of the condition of the people, must necessarily lead them to feel more strongly the situation in which they are placed, under the civil disabilities under which they now labour?-I certainly think so; I think that is the tendency of the law; just as a man advances in society the law checks his course, and thus rendering him discontented, renders his influence the means of inflaming all within its reach.

Do you think the people are generally aware of the extent to which offices are open to them in Ireland ?-I think the people consider that there is in the law a spirit of hostility to them and their religion.

Are there not a great many offices or situations open to the Roman Catholics by law, from which nevertheless they are generally practically excluded by the spirit which prevails in different parts of the country?-I cannot speak much of the interior of the country, with respect to those offices which are of a local nature, and disposed of by what may be considered local authorities. The Roman Catholics have certainly been eligible to the office of assistant barrister for a number of years; but until lately no Roman Catholic was appointed to it. I would take the liberty, however, of adding, that there were not formerly amongst the Roman Catholics so many candidates for promotion whose claims were grounded on station in their profession, as at present; because every year, in some

A great portion of the evidence given by Mr. Blake before the Committee of the House of Lords, being, necessarily, a repetition of that which he gave before the House of Commons, it has been omitted in this volume.

degree, adds to the number of Roman Catholic barristers, and adds to the qualifications of those already at the Bar.

Do you think the feeling you have described general among the Catholics at present?-So far as my opinion goes, it certainly is.

That, without understanding precisely the question, there is a general feeling that the law, as it stands at present, is in hostility to them and to their religion? They consider that the Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ireland are by law divided into two nations; a dominant and an inferior nation. They feel that they are of the inferior nation; and this sense of inferiority is kept in a state of perpetual inflammation by the constant discussion of the Catholic Question.

You think that is generally felt among all ranks of the Roman Catholics ?-I believe it to be so. I have, on these cursory visits to which I have alluded, occasionally spoken to the lower orders of the people, and I found great eagerness in their minds in regard to what they called the emancipation.

Do you conceive that they annex to the idea of emancipation the idea of the re-establishment of the Roman Catholic church in Ireland? I do not think they do. I think they have a confused notion in their minds, that they do not stand on an equal footing with the Protestants.

Do you think that they mean by emancipation, that the Roman Catholics should be rather uppermost than the Protestants?—I think not, I recollect asking a peasant what he meant by emancipation; his answer to me was, I should like to vote for your honour to go into parliament, or to see you a judge.

By emancipation they mean equality? They mean equality; a man to have equal rights with the Protestant. I recollect last year, when discussions took place with reference to the Catholics of England, there was something said of the danger of allowing Roman Catholics to sit upon the Bench, to be mixed with Protestants in the administration of justice; it is quite impossible for any person, who was not in Ireland at the time, to conceive the feeling that this created amongst the Roman Catholics. They derived an argument from it, that they could not be secure if the Bench was exclusively Protestant; they asked, "If you think you would not be secure if there were any Catholics on the Bench, how can we be secure when none but Protestants are there ?"

Do you think, if they were to obtain what is called emancipation, they would be content without the restoration of the church revenues to the Catholic clergy?—I am perfectly satisfied that they would rather deprecate that restoration than