deal of the misfortunes of Ireland arise from the disrespect of the lower orders to the laws. They are of opinion, that the laws were not made for their protection; they know no parts of them, except the penal and the punishing parts.

Have they any recollection, either by tradition or otherwise, of the former state of the penal laws in Ireland?—I cannot exactly tell; except that I believe in their little meetings on winter nights, they have amongst themselves many traditionary stories regarding the sufferings of their ancestors.

In point of fact, do you know any spots in the different parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted, which are considered as peculiarly holy; where, during the time of the ancient persecutions for religion, masses were celebrated and priests took refuge? I think I do, at least so far as I have heard those traditionary reports. They tell, that the priests withdrew to mountains and retired parts, and the people flocked after them; and there is a kind of veneration to those spots, to this day continued. Can you name any of those particular spots ?-I do believe I have known some of them. I do not know any particular place by name.

Having stated, that the existing disabilities produce some degree of distrust in the mind of Catholics towards the administration of the law, do you consider that those existing disabilities produce any and what effect, upon the disposition of Protestants towards their Catholic brethren?-I think they are in as great distrust, and in as great a state of fever in many instances, and perhaps others; for instance, in the beginning of the year 1825, I remonstrated with some on the folly of entertaining such a state of fearfulness and distrust.

On whose part was the fearfulness?-On the part of some Protestants in the neighbourhood; so much so, that one gentleman told myself, that he locked his doors at four o'clock, and did not permit any one to leave his house till the following morning.

At what time was this?-About Christmas last, commencing the year 1825.

Was that connected with any peculiar report?-I believe it was connected with unfounded reports; I have known gentlemen in my neighbourhood that absolutely quitted their houses, and came to reside in Dublin under that state of feeling.

Will you explain to the Committee what the circumstances were which excited this alarm, or what the immediate cause of apprehension was?-Certain idle mischievous reports, I believe, that are sent forth through the country, exciting the fears and alarms, both of the one party and the other; one report was, that all the Protestants were to be murdered on Christmas-eve; another, on

the eve of New-year's day; those reports were circulated by a set of designing individuals, to keep alive this kind of alarm, this kind of fearfulness between parties; I believe it was done sometimes from design.

Were those fears excited by the circumstances of the circulation of the prophecies ?—I think they were in a great degree.

Were those fears felt by all the Protestant gentry, or were there exceptions?-There were not among all, I think; they were particularly among those who were in the habit of reading, exclusively, newspapers of a party spirit; the people that were in the habit of reading those newspapers, and no other; and having their minds filled with them, and in the habit of receiving communications from a lower description of designing individuals; those were the persons that were most subject to such alarm.

What description of persons do you allude to, when you state they received communications from a lower class of persons?—I mean some of the yeomanry of the country.

The Protestant yeomanry?-The Protestant yeomanry.

Are the yeomanry of Longford exclusively Protestant ?-Indeed I think they are nearly so.

Are they supposed to be Orangemen ?-They are supposed to be Orangemen.

Amongst the Protestants who do not participate in these alarms, were there many of the most active and influential magistrates of the country?-Some of them; and some of those that were under those apprehensions were good and kind men; but they permitted themselves, from timidity, to labour under those apprehensions.

Can you state, whether the precautions, which you have described to have been taken in other houses, were taken at Castle Forbes ?-Indeed they were not; Lord Forbes would not have any hesitation or fear to leave his doors open; that was the case with others in the same county.

When you allude to newspapers which gave currency to those impressions of alarm, what papers do you allude to ?—I mean the Mail and the Star, violent party papers.

Do not you allude to another paper, which contains food of an opposite description ?—There are others, I believe, of an opposite description.

What papers are those ?-There is the Morning Register, and other papers.

The Dublin Evening Post ?—I do not think the Dublin Evening Post is a violent paper.

Have those persons who left their homes, at the time it was given out that there would be a massacre of Protestants at a particular period, since that period returned to their respective homes?

-There are some of them who, I think, have not returned; but not, perhaps, from any fearfulness of returning; but that they do not find it then convenient.

Then the alarm is allayed?-So far, yes.

Does that alarm arise from the same cause; namely, an apprehension of the murder of the Protestants?-No.

From what does it arise ?-I believe from designing individuals scattered all over the country, to keep still alive this kind of party feeling between Protestants and Catholics.

By whom do you think they are scattered ?-It is impossible to know; it is not easy to fasten the charge on any individual, but there are such individuals.

How do you think they are paid; what is your reason for thinking they are employed at all?-I have heard of such miscreants ranging through the country, exciting the Catholics against the Ŏrangemen, and the Orangemen against the Catholics.

Have any people of that description been arrested?—Not that I have heard of.

In no one instance has there been an arrest ?-No that I heard of.

Has there been any instance, in which there has been clear proof brought before, of the same individual that appeared at one chapel having subsequently appeared at another chapel ?—There was no proof.

Were you a member of the Catholic Association ?—No.

Were the clergy of your diocese ?—I do not believe there were many, not more than two or three.

Were the addresses, that proceeded from the Catholic Association, distributed in your diocese ?-They were sent to my diocese.

Was not the rent collected in your diocese ?-In some degree

it was.

Do not you think, that the collection of that rent, and the distribution of addresses from the Roman Catholic Association, might partly account for the alarm that was felt by the Protestants ?— I dare say it might *.

What councils are admitted as of force in Ireland at present ?The Council of Trent is the last council.

Are the decrees of the Council of Trent in force in Ireland at present ?-For the most part, they are.

What power is there in Ireland to reject any part of the decrees of the Council of Trent ?-There were certain points of discipline, which were not to become obligatory till promulged and

*In consequence of Dr. Magaurin's examination having followed that of the other Catholic bishops, a great part of his evidence is necessarily a repetition of what was stated by them, and has therefore been omitted in this volume,

received. In some parts of Ireland, these were not received, such as the law of clandestine marriages.

Are not all the important decrees of the Council of Trent enforced in Ireland?-They are.

Are the decrees of the Council of Lateran enforced in Ireland? -I am not aware what parts you refer to.

If a person is refused the Sacrament, does that imply that he is refused absolution ?-There is no instance of giving the one, and refusing the other.

Supposing an individual has not paid his assessment for a chapel, would there be any power on the part of the bishop or the priest, to withhold from him the Sacraments?-No power, for any pecuniary consideration.

Then if the Committee should find a letter issued by a vicar capitular in Ireland, to this effect; "Reverend Sir, I enjoin you again not to administer any Sacrament, publicly or privately, to any person, or any one of his family, who shall not have previously paid the full amount of both taxes; nor any of the rites of churching women, blessing of clay, or celebrating mass for them, under pain of suspension, to be incurred by the fact;" If such an order as that were issued to a priest, do not you think he would be compelled to obey it?-I do not think he should obey it. I do not think such an order should be issued. I know the printed regulations in my diocese are, that neither marriages or baptisms are to be refused on account of money. We have no civil means of enforcing the payment of money; and sometimes, perhaps, the churching of women, which is not a matter of abso lute necessity, may be threatened to be postponed, in order to obtain this money for the support of a chapel or of a school; but a clergyman would be very criminal, if he refused absolution for any such consideration,

What is the ceremony of blessing clay ?-It is on account of the law not permitting Roman Catholic clergymen to attend the burial; that ceremony takes place in the house of the deceased. It is a ceremony previous to the burial?—Yes.

What is the state of the chapels in your diocese ?—There are some of them in a miserable state; but there is an improvement within these few years.

Are they not so bad, as to justify great efforts to obtain money in order to procure decent accommodation ?-They are, in many instances.

Is the authority of the vicar capitular any other than to administer the see during a vacancy ?-He is a vicar appointed by the chapter to administer the see during a vacancy.

Do you concur with those prelates who have stated that they should see no objection, or inconsistency with the discipline of the

Catholic church in Ireland, to restrict the nomination of prelates absolutely to those who have been postulated from Ireland ?— Not the smallest objection.

In fact, to make domestic nomination essential to the institution ?-Not the smallest objection.

Should you object, as being inconsistent with the independence of the Catholic church, to a provision being made by the State for the bishops and clergy of the Catholic church in Ireland ?I do not see any objection as to its independence, but so far as regards myself, I have no anxiety for it.

You say you see no objection as to the independence of the church; do you see any objection upon any other ground?—I do believe there are some who would suppose the exertions of the Catholic clergy might slacken when their support was independent of the will of the people; but, however, I have not those apprehensions, because I think, as long as I live, the clergymen under my care will do their duty.

Does not the necessity of contributing to the support of the clergy, in many instances, press rather severely upon the population?-No doubt it is so much out of pocket.

And in many instances out of a pocket which contains very little? Yes.

In many instances, then, it must press very severely upon the population ?—Yes.

You can have no doubt, then, that if there was no objection to it in point of independence or of discipline, that such an arrangement must be acceptable to a large body of the Catholic population in Ireland?—I think it would, conditionally.

Of course concurrent with Catholic Emancipation ?—I think in that case it would be acceptable; I think it would be well received; but without that condition I do not think it would be received as a boon.

If made concurrent with Catholic Emancipation, or consequent upon such a measure, and not objected to by the bishops or clergy, you cannot have a doubt it would be acceptable to the people? I think it would.

In the event of the gift of such a provision being made, concurrent with the grant of Catholic Emancipation, should you see any objection to the Crown receiving a power of inquiring into the character and principles of persons postulated for the Catholic episcopacy, and acting upon such information ?—I would.

Would you think that objection would equally lie against it if the inquiry was made by a commission consisting of Catholics ?— I would not like any interference at all on their part, except so far as regards the clergy of the diocese, over whom the individual in contemplation is to preside.