possession of it raises them in their own estimation, or in that of others?-I really do not think it does, in the slightest degree, raise them in their own estimation.

Or in that of others? Or in that of others; and if they were left free, I am convinced that many of them would prefer much being allowed to take no share in the election, under their present circumstances.

The observations which you have made apply to both the counties?-To both the counties, the county of Galway and the county of Mayo, so far as I am acquainted with them.

Then you do not think that any legislative enactment, the effect of which would be to raise the qualification of freeholders, would be one that would be generally unpalatable to the mass of 40s. freeholders themselves?-As to what the effect of it would be in a political point of view, I will not attempt to offer an opinion; but as to the moral effect of it, I am convinced they would be most happy if there was some reform in the present manner of registering 40s. freeholders.

Do you think that on the whole the people would consider it as a measure calculated for their happiness, if the 40s. freeholds were done away with ?-I declare it is my opinion, that a vast number of them would consider it as conferring a great favour on them under the existing mode and circumstances.

Have you any doubt, that if such a measure were made concurrent with the grant of political privileges to the Catholics generally, that to the body of the Catholics such an act would be unobjectionable?-To the poor I think it would be unobjectionable, and probably to the better order of the Catholics also.

Are you of opinion, that raising the elective franchise from 40s. to a higher sum, say 101. or 20l. would be palatable to the lower orders of the present existing 40s. freeholders?—I believe some of them would consider that it would better their condition, others perhaps not.

In point of fact, is not a large proportion of that class of persons who are now registered as 101. or 201. freeholders, or who might register freeholds to that amount, of the Catholic persuasion ?-A great portion of them are in my part of the country.

In towns they are unquestionably so, and the middling order of farmers is almost exclusively Catholic?-Yes.

Would not all the poorest description of 40s. freeholders consider it a relief from what is now considered by them a great inconvenience, if the qualification was raised to 10%.? I am perfectly satisfied that many would consider it a relief.

Would not a great number of the better description of

40s. freeholders be able to qualify at the new nate of 107.? -They would.

You have said, that, morally speaking, the people would not object to the qualification being raised, but you doubted as to politically; will you have the goodness to tell the Committee whether you have any authority for saying that there would be a political objection to such an arrangement?-I stated that as to the political effects of it I could not speak, but I was thoroughly convinced as to the moral effects that they would be good.

You have stated, that you think the moral effects of altering the rate of the elective franchise would be beneficial to the general condition of the people of Ireland ?-Of the poor.

Is it not your opinion, that if the system of 40s. freeholds, the abuse of the system rather, was totally altered and done away, that that would be a better mode of benefiting the moral condition of the lower orders of Catholics, then raising the rate of qualification from 40s. to a higher rate?-Any alteration that would check the evils of the present system must lead to the improvement of the public morals.

Do not you think, that doing away the 40s., freeholders as they are now, not the real bona fide 40s. freeholders, but the 40s. freeholders in joint tenancy, would more improve the condition of the lower classes than raising the rate of voting in joint tenancy?—I am satisfied it would.

The better way to correct the moral evils would be to do away the system entirely ?-Certainly.

Can you point out how it would be possible to make such an arrangement?-I declare I could not without due consideration.

Do you think, that in the state of dependence in which the Irish peasant is necessarily kept by the situation in which he stands with relation to his landlord, it would be possible, under any circumstances with respect to an agricultural population such as that of Ireland, to regulate the registry of the 40s. franchise in such a manner as to prevent its abuse? I do not know, at this moment, in what manner the abuse could be remedied.

You are aware that a bill passed the Houses of Parliament a year back, or two years back, which was intended to prevent the registration of votes under joint-tenancy leases ?—Yes.

Did the enactment of that law produce any dissatisfaction whatsoever amongst the 40s. freeholders within your observation? None whatsoever.

Did you hear any one amongst them complain of the effect of that law in limiting the 40s. franchise ?-I never heard one complain of it.

On the contrary, have not you heard the people express their satisfaction at the encouragement that was afforded to the abolition of the system of joint tenancy? All that I have heard speak of joint tenancy seem to be well pleased at its being done

away.

Have you ever met an industrious working peasant who did not complain of the system of joint tenancy as subjecting him to inconvenience, and the loss which must fall on him from the failure or negligence of those who were his partners ?—I have often heard them make such complaints.

In the counties of Galway and Mayo, with which you are connected, are there any persons in the condition of small farmers who hold a fee of five or six acres of land, or who hold land in perpetuity to that amount?-Very few; I do not know any hardly; there may be some few.

Are there any in that condition in the towns with which you are acquainted ?-No, not so low as that.

With respect to the principle of disfranchising the 40s. freeholders, do not you think it would be unfair to deprive men, under those circumstances, holding a fee of land of a small number of acres, or holding a lease in perpetuity, by which they have no more than a 40s. franchise, although they have that, to deprive them of their franchise?—I think if they had a lease in perpetuity, and that it was worth 40s. to them, that it would be doing injustice to them.

In short, the same reasons do not hold good with respect to that description of freeholders that hold good with respect to the common 40s. freeholders of Ireland ?No doubt of it; I do not consider that depriving the common freeholder of his franchise is depriving him of a right; on the contrary I think it is, in many instances, conferring a favour upon him, relieving him from doing that which he is unwilling to do, but which dread and intimidation induce him to do.

In the event of disfranchising the 40s. freeholders in counties, and retaining them in towns and cities, would not the effect of that be to throw the great power of returning the members for the county into the hands of persons residing in towns?—I should think not.

If the 40s. freeholders are retained in towns and abolished in the open country, if there exist any number of 40s. freeholders in towns, it must give them a great preponderance?—Yes; but if the country were divided into small farms instead of having those joint-tenancy leases, and if the inhabitants were allowed another right of voting; for example, raising it from 40s. to 5l. or 107.

Can you inform the Committee what is the size of the town of Tuam? Of about 800 houses: the suburbs and all, about 1000.

If the system was to allow the 40s. freeholder in a town to retain his vote, would not that system give the town of Tuam, a very small town, a very unfair preponderance in returning the members for the county ?-I do not know a single 40s. freeholder at all in the town of Tuam.

Is not that town principally bishop's property?-Yes.

Would not those observations apply to a town that was not held under a bishop: for instance, the town of Westport, in Mayo? Those observations would be applicable to Westport. Or to any town of a freehold tenure?—Yes.

Does it not appear to you that that would be a very blind way of legislating with respect to the 40s. freeholders?-I do not see the injury it would do to those who in the country would be deprived of their vote, because I do not consider they gene rally set any value upon the right of voting; they derive no benefit from it.

Does the description of tenant inhabiting a small house in such a town as Tuam or Westport, enjoying a 40s. franchise, differ very much from the description of man who at present resides in the country and enjoys the elective franchise?—It does.

Will you state the difference?-A man in a town enjoying 40s. freehold is more comfortable, possesses more advantageous tenure, and more opportunity of employment.

you

When you drew a distinction between the 40s. freeholds in towns or cities and the 40s. freeholds in the country, did mean the 40s. freeholds in towns and cities of counties at large, or did you refer to peculiar and corporate jurisdictions, such as the town of Galway, the county of the town of Galway, the county of the city of Kilkenny, or cases of that kind? There is no town within the arch-diocese of Tuam which I could call a corporate town save that of Tuam, in which there are no 40s. freeholders.

Do not you think the disposition amongst Irish landlords is so strong to create 40s. freeholders, and to make their property subservient to political purposes, that if the 40s. freeholders in the counties were abolished, those possessing property in towns, would immediately set about the creation of 40s. freeholders for the purpose of giving them the political right? I do not see exactly how they could make 40s. freeholders in towns to such an extent.

Would you conceive it expedient to preserve 40s. freeholders in such a town, for instance, as the town of Westport, in the county of Mayo, unless that 40s. freehold tenancy was a tenancy for ever, or a tenancy in fee?-Unless it was a tenancy for ever I would not consider it should be preserved.

Do the whole of your observations with respect to 40s. freeholders apply to that class of persons who are dependent upon the proprietor of the soil? The class of persons against whom I object as voters out of 40s. freeholds is that of persons having only a short tenure of land.

And your objection is equally applicable to the freeholders in

towns and cities?—Yes.

Then your observations apply altogether to 40s. freeholders of that description voting in counties?-Yes.

Is this right of voting upon à 40s. freehold property called a franchise, generally speaking ?-It is called a franchise in general.

Generally speaking, do those 40s. freeholders exercise any freedom of election?The poorer order of the 40s. freeholders certainly have no freedom of election, generally speaking.

Is not it considered dishonourable in a candidate to canvass the freeholders of an adverse proprietor ?Yes, I believe they do consider it dishonourable.

Is it not regarded as a species of poaching?-They certainly do not interfere with each other's tenants,

You have described yourself as meeting some voters who had returned from registering themselves, and you added also from perjuring themselves, according to their own representation; how were those unfortunate men dressed ?Very poorly. Had they shoes to their feet? Some had.

And some had not ?—I have seen some who had not. Did not they bear more the appearance of mendicants than of independent electors ?-They had very little appearance of comfort about them, many of them.

How are they collected together, and conducted to the ses sions for registering?-I have already mentioned I have not been present at any of those registries.

Do you think that increase in the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise in Ireland would increase or diminish the Roman Catholic interest in that country?-I do not think it would diminish the Catholic interest in my part of the country.

In the arch-diocese of Tuam, what is the state of the chapels in the different parishes, and what is the character and degree of accommodation afforded to the population of the Catholic persuasion for the celebration of religious worship?-The state of the chapels in the arch-diocese of Tuam is very wretched.

Will you have the kindness to give any detailed information upon that point to the Committee that you have had an oppor tunity of making a note of?-As far as my memory has been able to serve me, without having any document to go by at the