conacres? That is sometimes allowed; many persons have an objection to have their land burnt.

Either process is a great exhaustion of the soil?-Very considerable in some soils.

Then do you mean to describe to the Committee, that the circumstance of the increase of the number of families upon a certain district within your knowledge was so great, that, for the purpose of having absolute support, the people who lived upon that soil were forced to recur to this practice of conacres upon another estate and property?-They were obliged, for their absolute support, to have recourse to another property.

Was that farm upon which this subdivision took place a considerable farm in the first instance?-A very considerable farm in the first instance; it would have made the twenty families comfortable, without being under the necessity of having recourse to any other land.

Will you have the goodness to state, if you can form any sort of estimate, what the number of individuals might have been in those sixty families?-The average I always make in families is six.

Then on this farm the number had increased to 360 souls?Thereabouts.

Have you ever been able to compare the result of your own enumeration of the people in any one part of your district with the number contained in the last population returns ?—Yes, I have in some instances.

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What has been the result of that comparison?-So far as ever I examined, I always found the population under-rated. In the population returns?—In the population returns.

As far as your experience goes, the number of people in your district is above the return officially made to Parliament ?—I think so.

In what proportion?—I could not exactly say.

Do you know any one instance you can state the number; in the county of Mayo, for instance, or any other part of your district?-I could not exactly adduce any instance, but the general impression upon my mind always was that the population was under-rated.

Are you able to state the proportion of births to deaths in your diocese, or in any parish in your diocese, in a year?—I could not at this moment.

What is your opinion with regard to the proportion that the number of Roman Catholics bear to Protestants in your diocese?—I recollect that in the year 1815 the Catholic clergy took a census of the population in the parish of Tuam, and it amounted to 6000 souls, and at that time the proportion was,

that of those 6,000 there were 380 Protestants, and the rest were Catholics.

What counties are there in your diocese?-Parts of the county of Galway and the county of Mayo, and one or two parishes in

Roscommon.

Have you, or has any person under your direction, taken any regular census of any part of the diocese?The parish priests in general can pretty nearly ascertain the amount of the Catholic population of their respective parishes.

In what instances is it that you have discovered an error in the population returns?-Comparing the population of some of the small towns in my diocese, and also the returns of the Roman Catholic clergy, with those made to Parliament, I found the latter under the returns made by the Roman Catholic clergy.

Are those returns made from actual enumeration or from calculation? In the instance of Tuam in was done by actual enumeration.

The Committee understood you to state that the population return that was recently taken was incorrect?—I did not say incorrect; but I mentioned that, in the population returns I had looked over, I found that they were under the idea that I had formed of the population of the districts to which I looked. Then your conviction of their being under-rated in the population returns arises from that calculation, and not from any actual enumeration ?–My belief that the population was underrated in the census proceeds from my comparing those returns with the reports of the Roman Catholic clergy.

Were those reports of the Roman Catholic clergy generally founded upon actual enumeration, or only upon calculation?— In the instance of Tuam it was by actual enumeration; in the others it was from a calculation, knowing the number of families and averaging the number of individuals in each family.

Have you any of those returns that have been made to you by the Roman Catholic clergy ?-I have not got one.

Could you furnish the Committee with them?-I could not at this moment.

Was there not a return made during the season of distress in Ireland of the number of persons relieved in the county of Mayo from actual enumeration; from the distribution of that relief?-I really never thought that enumeration correct.

Did you consider that it was above the actual number or below it?-Generally above it.

Then you do not conceive that return to be correct?—I do not consider that return correct.

In enumerating the causes of the increase of population in

Ireland, do not you think that the facility of procuring fuel is one of the chief causes?-The facility of obtaining fuel is a great encouragement to the building of cabins.

Is not turf the common fuel?-Turf is the common fuel.

Is the turf bog leased out to the tenantry in the same manner as their lands are leased, or is it held by the landlord in his own power?-It is generally held by the landlord in his own power, and not included in the lease.

Has any landlord within your knowledge ever refused permission to cut turf, with the view of keeping down the population, of his district?-No, I have never known them to do so for that purpose; I have known landlords not to allow tenants to cut more than a certain quantity of turf, but that was to prevent the bog being exhausted.

You were stating to the Committee the circumstances under which the population has increased in some particular parts of the diocese of Tuam, and having among other causes mentioned the subdivision of land, would you have the goodness to inform the Committee whether that subdivision of land has been increased by any other causes, that contribute to it besides the early marriages: in point of fact, whether the landlords of the country have at any time contributed to its increase?-I have reason to believe that the landlords of the country have often contributed to it for the purpose of increasing the number of freeholders.

As contested elections have more than once taken place in the county of Galway, and in the county of Mayo, both which counties are in part within your diocese, you have had an opportunity doubtless of witnessing the manner in which votes are manufactured in those counties?-I have heard and seen a good deal about it.

You reside in Tuam ?-I do.

Tuam is a quarter sessions town?-It is.

Have you seen the registry of freeholders constantly proceeding in that town?-Frequently.

Have you had an opportunity of knowing how a freehold. is created, and what the class of persons is to whom it is given, as well as the interest which they generally have in the tenure of their lands? The Committee take the liberty of referring to you, because they know that Tuam has been a considerable manufacturing town.-I have known landlords of the country to parcel out their lands into small portions, making leases of a life or twenty-one years to their tenants, for the purpose of enabling them to give a vote at elections.

What is the smallest portion of land out of which you have known a freeholder's being registered? They register out of three acres sometimes.

Have not instances come within your knowledge of one or more freeholders being registered out of less than three acres? -They may perhaps have registered out of less.

Are not the farms in your part of the country generally held in joint tenancy?-They have been.

Is not that the usual practice?-It has been the usual practice. Are not the population of the country in the county of Galway usually congregated in villages, and not residing in separate houses?-They are.

Those villages are generally held under a separate lease?They are.

How many partners in the lease?-Ten, twelve, or twenty partners.

And the holders in such joint tenancy divide again, as you before described, to their sons and sons-in-law, and the members of their families?—Yes, they do.

Are they not obliged by their landlord, or induced perhaps, to create a freehold interest in each of the persons upon whom such small subdivisions of land have devolved?-In many in

stances.

They all are brought in to be registered?-In many instances they are.

Will you have the kindness to describe any of the scenes of registry which have taken place within your own observation? -I have never been present at a registry, but I have met the unfortunate people who have registered, very often.

Do you mean coming in, or returning from registering?-Before and after registering.

Have you ever conversed with those persons?-Yes, I have. Will you have the kindness to state the tenure of their conversation, or of their observations upon the task they had been performing?-They have often called upon me to represent their condition, and stated that the quantity of land they held was very small; that they were very apprehensive about taking the oath that they were 40s. freeholders; and they requested me to advise them what to do upon the occasion. My advice uniformly was for no person to register as a freeholder unless he could do it with safety to his own conscience: I have met them afterwards, and they acknowledged to me, that although they did not feel their consciences quite at ease, they were obliged to register those freeholds; that they had been threatened to be expelled from their holdings, and to be deprived of their land, unless they registered those freeholds.

Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee, seeing that the persons so registering had a freehold lease,what the circumstances of the peasantry of that country are, in general, which enable the landlord to execute the threat of ex

pelling them from the possession of their land?-In some instances, bog is not included in the lease which the tenant has; and in order to get rid of a tenant, although he may have a lease, the landlord withholds the use of the bog from him, and he can no longer keep the holding. In other parts of the country, along the sea-coast, the lands are not of value, without the help of sea-weed, or what they call rack, which they make use of as manure for the ground; and the liberty to cut this seaweed, or rack is not included generally in the lease: when, then, the landlord wishes to get rid of the tenant, he has only to refuse him permission to cut rack.

Does not the circumstance of joint tenancy, and the failure of any one tenant in the co-partnership, give to the landlord an indefinite power over the whole of those who hold in such a tenancy, and to compel them, if registered as freeholders, to submit to his dictation?-I think it does.

Do you not conceive, then, that any proposition which should have for its object to discourage the joint tenancy of farms, would in itself contribute very much to raise the tenant in his own class of society, and to make him, in a great degree, more independant of his landlord?-Decidedly. I think the jointtenancy system is very injurious to the prosperity of Ireland. Have you ever been present at a contested election?-No, I never was; I never was at election in my life.

Then you can give no information to the Committee of the manner in which freeholders are brought up to vote in Ireland? -Not from actual observation.

If there is any information you can give the Committee on that subject, the Committee will be glad to hear it?-The general impression upon my mind is, that the system of 40s. freeholds in Ireland is a system replete with much mischief; that it is highly injurious to the morals of the people; that it is a source of perjury in many instances.

You can have no doubt either of the effect it must have generally upon the population of the country, the being either induced or menaced by their landlords, who are their magis, tracy, and who ought to be their protectors, and instigated to the commission of the crime of perjury for the sake of advanceing the political influence of the person under whom they derive?-Not the least doubt of it.

You have stated, that you have met with, and conversed with many of those whom you justly describe as unfortunate people, who have been compelled to register their freeholds; have you found, generally, amongst the peasantry of the arch-diocese of Tuam, that the people themselves after having so registered, set any great value upon the possession of their franchise, or that the