be carried into effect, provided it facilitated the great question of Catholic Emancipation?-I should be very sorry to raise the slightest difficulty in the way of Catholic Emancipation; and I would make great sacrifices of my personal feelings as to the mode of provision, were such sacrifices essential to the attainment of that object, inasmuch as I consider it a paramount con

sideration.

Mercurii, 23° die Martii, 1825.

SIR HENRY PARNELL, BARONET,

IN THE CHAIR.

The Most Reverend Oliver Kelly, D.D., Titular Archbishop of Tuam, again called in; and further Examined.

HAVE you been able to observe any increase in the population of the district with which you are acquainted ?-For the last twenty-four years that I have been in Ireland, I have observed a very considerable increase in the population of the part of the country where I have been residing.

Have you been able to discover any distinction in the ratio of increase in those districts where the situation of the people is improved, as compared with the increase of the population where the people are in a great state of misery ?--I think I have. About the year 1806 I was appointed to a parish in the county of Mayo, along the sea coast, between the towns of Westport and Newport, and I found that the people who inhabited that district were extremely comfortable; they were more industrious than the generality of the people in other parts of the country; they were weavers; they had taken spots of ground along the sea-coast, and they employed themselves occasionally at the linen business, at other times in tilling their little farms, and where an opportunity offered, in fishing: by those means they became much more comfortable than the peasantry in other parts of the country, and the increase of the population was not so rapid.

Have you been able to compare the number of marriages which took place in a district like that which you have described, with the number of marriages that took place in the more agricultural and less prosperous districts?—Yes, I think I have; I did observe, that in those prosperous districts the

marriages were not so frequent as I found them in more impoverished districts.

In those more prosperous districts you found that there was an indisposition, on the part of the people, to contract improvident marriages?-I found that there was an indisposition, on their part, to contract improvident marriages. I have perfectly on my recollection that the circumstance struck me at the time, and that I did inquire amongst the people how it happened; and the reply I received was, that they had no idea of entering into the matrimonial state until they could acquire a competency for their own support, and the support of a family. In other parts of the country, where I observed very considerable poverty, I found a greater indifference about their future comforts than among persons in a more prosperous situation in life.

Then do you believe that every measure which has a tendency to augment the comfort of the peasant, and raise his condition in society, has also a tendency to check improvident marriages? -Decidedly; from the experience I have had, and from the observations that I have made.

Do the peasantry feel any considerable difficulty in providing themselves with habitations of a decent and respectable kind in your part of the country ?-Very great difficulty.

Is there much timber available for those purposes within the reach of the peasantry?-There is a great want of native timber, there is very little of it grown in the parts of the country I am acquainted with; and the foreign timber is quite beyond the reach of the poor, and therefore they cannot make their habitations comfortable or convenient; and I have heard them frequently make the remark, that if they could get timber at a cheap rate they would endeavour to make comfortable habitations for themselves.

Is not the high price of foreign timber in Ireland a great obstacle to the building of slated houses for the peasantry ?—I think it is.

Do you conceive that a reduction of the duty on foreign timber would place timber and slated houses within the reach of a class in Ireland who are now prevented from making use of it from the high price of the article ?-I know it would; I know that if the duty on foreign timber were reduced, it would enable many to build comfortable houses, who are now obliged

to content themselves with thatched cabins.

Do you conceive that any facility given to the peasantry to improve the state of the houses in the country, would also have a tendency to check the increase of the population to which you have adverted, on the principles laid down in the early part of your evidence?-I am decidedly of opinion, that any thing

that would tend to improve the condition of the peasantry, would be a check on improvident marriages.

Is it the custom in that part of Ireland with which you are connected, for landlords to give long leases to their tenants ?→→→ No."

What is the general term ?-One life, or twenty-one years, whichever may last longest.

Are the peasantry aware, under such a tenure, that if they plant and register their trees, they become the actual proprie tors of that timber when grown up? I have endeavoured to impress that upon them, but I do not know that it is generally understood.

Have you found any of the tenantry sufficiently enlightened to follow that advice? The planting of trees is a matter not much attended to by them; the forms necessary for the registry may in some degree account for it.

Can you at all inform the Committee what is the expense of the timber that would be necessary for building a slated house for that kind of peasantry who would be likely to build it ?—I could not exactly say.

Could you draw any comparison between the price of the wood with which they at present support the roof of this house, and what would be required in order to support a slated roof? -I dare say it would require four times as much money to put on a roof fit for slates as it would for a thatched cabin.

Can you tell what would be the cost of a roof constructed as at present?-It depends upon the part of the country where the houses are built; from 20s. to 40s. I suppose.

The question of the transport of the timber is a question quite independent of the duty ?-When I speak of from 40s. to 20s. I speak of the timber they now use.

You conceive that you might calculate that a roof of foreign timber, fit for supporting slates, would cost three or four times that amount?-Yes, at least.

Do you know at all the difference between the value of slates for a roof and the thatch that is at present used?-In the parts of the country I am acquainted with there are slates of different prices; between the cheapest kind of slate and the thatch roof there is a very considerable difference; in fact, the thatch they do not consider an expense: the straw they make use of grows on their own little farm, they do not purchase it.

Could you form any estimate of what would be the value of the whole tenement of a poor person if built with foreign timber and with slate; what would be the cost of building at the present price of timber?-I conceive I could not complete such a comfortable habitation as would be sufficiently spacious for a amily under seventy or eighty pounds.

Have the lower orders any capital which would go to build such improved houses?-Not at present, the lower orders in that part of the country have no capital.

Do you know whether many of the farmers who now build thatched houses of a better description than those occupied by the peasantry would not be disposed to build slated houses, and whether they do not possess the means of doing so, if they could procure the timber at a cheaper rate than at present? When spoke of the expense of building houses I alluded to the better order of the poor, many of whom I know at present do live in thatched cabins who would, if the materials were cheaper, build more comfortable houses for themselves...

Have you known the circumstance of the occupation of thatched houses by the description of farmers to whom you refer made a means by which they were intimidated by the White Boys, the Ribbonmen, and the disturbers of the public peace?I declare I have not.

Can you tell the Committee whether a new plan which has been adopted in several parts of Ireland, of covering the poorer kind of houses with a mixture of lime and moss together, has been adopted in the diocese of Tuam? No, I have not seen it adopted.

Have you heard of the process of covering cottages with that mixture? No, never till now.

Can you inform the Committee upon what principles the clergy in your arch-diocese have acted with regard to improvi dent marriages; whether they have taken any steps to discourage them, or whether they felt themselves at liberty to do so? -I know, whenever consulted, they always recommend those who enter into the matrimonial state, not to do so without hav ing the prospect of being enabled to support, and to make out subsistence for their families.

Is there not a fee paid upon marriage in your church? There is.

Have any instances come within your knowledge in which the receipt of that fee has tended to encourage improvident mar riages, or has induced the priest to recommend them?-I-have never known or heard of a priest recommending marriage for the sake of the fees.

Have you known any instances in which Roman Catholics, both parties being Roman Catholics, have agreed to be married, and have been actually married by Protestant clergymen ? I have known instances where the Roman Catholic parties have made application to Roman Catholic clergymen, and have been refused on account of canonical impediments, and the parties

were subsequently married by a minister of the Established Church.

At what age of the parties, can you inform the Committee, are marriages usually contracted among the peasantry?-Very young; in general the females marry at eighteen or twenty; the males at twenty-one, twenty-two, and from that to thirty.

Almost universally, are they not married before they are one or two-and-twenty?-Generally speaking, the females are.

Is the practice of subdividing land by the father or chief of a family usual in the part of the country with which you are acquainted, in order to enable them to contract those marriages? It is quite a usual thing in that part of the country.

Will you have the kindness to state to the Committee any facts which have come to your knowledge, if any are within your knowledge, with respect to the subdivision of land, and the accumulation of families upon any particular districts, owing to that practice, accompanied by that of early marriages? I can bring to my recollection a farm which was originally leased to about twenty families, and I recollect to have seen sixty different families afterwards living upon the same farm. Was that in the neighbourhood of Tuam ?-It was.

Do you happen to know whether the land or the farm upon which that immense increase of population, arose was derived immediately from the proprietor of the fee, or through a gradation of landlords or interests?-It was derived immediately from the landlord in fee.

Was the subdivision of land which resulted from this state of things that over which the landlord had any control, or was the tenantry multiplied in this manner without any intervention of his ?There was no intervention on the part of the landlord.

Then it grew from the natural causes of the subdivision of the soil, and the increase of marriages ?-Entirely.

Was the tract of land an extensive district upon which this great augmentation took place?-The tract of land was not very considerable; they were obliged to have recourse to other parts of the country to have tillage, in what we call, in that part of the country Conacres.

Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee what the practice of conacres is in the county of Galway?—The practice of conacres in the county of Galway is, that a poor man who has not land, or a sufficiency of land of his own, takes an acre, or half an acre, or less, from some person for a single season, and takes the off the land. of that crep year Is not the practice of burning the soil usual upon taking the