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means; they address the Saviour as their Mediator, as their Lord, and as their God; and they address the saints as the servants or creatures of God, who have died in favour with Him. They can give them nothing of themselves, they only intercede with God for them.

Would the Roman Catholics conceive, that any other mode of prayer to the saints, would be admitting another Mediator between God and man, than the Redeemer? If they were to pray in any other manner to them, than for intercession, I should consider it an error, and that they would be asking of them what they had not the power to give.

Would not praying to them to save them by their merits, be, in point of fact, admitting another Mediator between God and man, besides Jesus Christ ?-It would, if they thought the saints could save them by their own merits, without the mediation of Jesus Christ.

There is in this same book, a question, "What do you think of the frequent crossings, upon which the Papists lay so great a stress in their divine offices, and for security against sickness and ill accidents;" the answer is, "They are vain and superstitious. The worship of the crucifix or figure of Christ upon the cross, is idolatrous; and the adoring and praying to the cross itself, is of all corruptions of the Popish worship, the most gross and intolerable." Is it in point of fact, a part of the Roman Catholic practice, to worship the crucifix, or adore or pray to the cross?— Roman Catholics renounce all divine worship, or adoration of the cross; they use it as a memorial of the passion and death of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it reminds them of his sufferings and death for us; but the crucifix, or the cross, has no intrinsic virtue or efficacy in it, more than any other inanimate substance; it is merely a memento to impress upon our minds, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and that it is through him alone, that we can expect salvation.

Is the respect and regard which the Roman Catholics bear to such image or crucifix, of the same nature as that which any other person might bear to a picture of a dear and absent friend? -Yes; respectively so.

Is there any worship in your church, of images, or of idols, or of relics?—There is no divine worship of images, of idols, or of relics, in our church; I have already stated the relative respect we entertain for certain images and relics.

Then do not you conceive, according to your judgment, that the charge of idolatry which is brought against your church, is an unfounded charge?—I consider it as most unfounded, inasmuch as we do not have recourse to those images, for any other purpose than what I have already mentioned; they are books for

the illiterate; by looking at the crucifix, they are reminded of the death and passion of our Lord; further than that is not expected or desired.

In this same catechism, there is upon the subject of Penance, a statement, that the sinner is allowed to get another person to do penance for him, and besides, the Pope grants indulgences, whereby he remits all penances, not only of sin past, but some times such as shall be committed for a great number of years to come, or during a man's whole life; and these indulgences, which cannot but be considered as licenses for sin, are publicly sold for money; what would you wish to observe upon that statement ?—The doctrine of Indulgences in the Catholic church, does not by any means imply the idea, that sin can be remitted by indulgences; sin, according to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, can never be forgiven, without a sincere and hearty sorrow, accompanied with a firm purpose and resolution of amending life; and when the sinner so disposed, avails himself of the sacrament of penance, his sins are forgiven by sacramental absolution; but indulgence in the Roman Catholic church, never meant the forgiveness of sin, or of the pain eternal due to it. Indulgence means the remission or relaxation of the temporal pu nishment due to sin, after the eternal guilt and punishment had been previously remitted.

Is there any instance of an indulgence being granted, for sins to be committed at a future period? There can be no indulgence for sins to be committed at a future period; and there is no authority in the Catholic church, and there never did exist an authority in the Catholic church, which assumed to itself the power of giving leave or indulgence to commit sin at a future period.

Are indulgences ever sold for money?-I have never known an indulgence to be sold for money; I have read in books, that have been written against the Catholic religion, that it was the practice in the Catholic church, to sell indulgences; but this is a misrepresentation and a mis-statement of the doctrine of the Catholic church; in some instances, there may have been a commutation of temporal penances, and pious pecuniary contributions may have been substituted in lieu of some other atonement. But if mistakes and abuses have been committed, in granting indul gences, through the ignorance of particular persons, such abuses cannot be reasonably charged on the church, as it rejects and condemns those practices.

Can that commutation be obtained in the present age?-I am not aware how far it may be practised at present.

Is the sinner allowed to get another person to do penance for

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him?-In the Catholic church, every sinner is required to do penance for himself.

Is there any instance in which he can be allowed to get another person to do penance for him ?—He is at liberty to avail himself of the prayers, and the good works of others, in his behalf.

Could that in any instance, excuse him from doing penance himself? By no means.

In the doctrine of penance in the Roman Catholic church, is there not included, besides the outward acts of penance, a contrite disposition of mind, and a resolute determination to avoid sin in future? In the Catholic church, we set no value upon the external act of penance, unless it be accompanied by repentance; unless in fact, it be accompanied by sorrow and contrition for sin, with a firm resolution not to relapse into it.

Therefore to the doctrine of repentance, as distinguished from penance, there is superadded the outward mark, which the Catholic church has connected with that change of mind?-Exactly.

What are the usual external marks of penance which are imposed, for example, in your diocese ?-They are various; fasting, prayer, alms deeds, and other good works.

Are pilgrimages imposed as penance, pilgrimages to holy places, and the observance of duties at those places ?-In some instances, pilgrimages may be imposed as penances; it is not a general practice.

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Are those pilgrimages, which the Catholic peasantry in Ireland are accustomed to fulfil, voluntary on their part, or commanded by some authority of their church? The pilgrimages they perform in Ireland, generally speaking, are voluntary. I have forbidden performance at wells, not that I consider it evil in itself; but in consequence of the abuses, which I have known to arise from those performances, I have thought it prudent to endeavour to put a stop to them, and have in some degree succeeded. : You say the church has the power of removing the temporal punishment of sin; by that you mean the penance enjoined ?— Yes.

Is that temporal punishment remitted by virtue of the indulgence, or is it remitted by the Catholic clergy; after the indulgence being given, is the indulgence a qualification to receive the remission, or does the indulgence itself remit the temporal punishment?—The indulgence consists in the remission of the temporal punishment, that may remain due after the eternal guilt be remitted; this indulgence cannot be gained, unless the sin is previously forgiven; and after the sin and the eternal punishment due to the sin are forgiven, then the indulgence remits the temporal

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punishment, or a portion of temporal punishment, that is due after the sin is forgiven.

In Ireland, how are those indulgences now granted, by what authorities, and in what manner?-The indulgences in Ireland are granted by the Pope generally.

Directly, or passing through the medium of the ecclesiastical authorities in Ireland?-Passing through the medium of the ecclesiastical authorities; they are sent to the ecclesiastical authorities, and they announce them to the faithful, who are at liberty to avail themselves of them.

Are they generally or individually granted?-Generally.

Are they granted generally to the Catholic communicants in a particular diocese, or to individual communicants forming part of that body?—There are some indulgences granted for the entire kingdom; there are other indulgences granted to particular dio

ceses.

Are they in those particular dioceses granted generally, or to individuals, at the pleasure of the bishop or metropolitan ?—There are certain conditions generally required in order to obtain the benefit of an indulgence; one of the conditions is, to approach the sacraments with proper dispositions, as inward sorrow, detestation of sin, and a firm purpose and resolution of amendment: when those conditions are complied with, on the part of the penitent, then the indulgence extends to him.

It is stated in this same catechism, that Roman Catholics hold that faith is not to be kept with heretics, and that the Pope can absolve subjects from their oath of allegiance to their sovereign: is there the slightest truth in those two accusations, or the most remote ground for them?-Not the slightest truth; as a minister of the Catholic church, I feel it my duty to declare, that I have always considered it imperative on me to impress on the minds of those who are under my spiritual care, that they are bound to keep faith with heretics, and all those differing from them in religion, as strictly and as rigidly as they would towards persons of their own communion. With respect to the allegiance that is due to the sovereign, the Pope has no right of interference whatsoever; we recognise no power in the sovereign pontiff, or in any other authority, to absolve us from the allegiance which we owe to our king.

By heretics, are all persons understood who are not of the Roman Catholic communion ?—I should conceive there are many who are not within the communion of the Roman Catholic church, who yet are not heretics.

Are the individuals belonging to the Greek church considered as heretics, by the Roman Catholic church ?-No, not at all.

They are considered as schismatics?-As schismatics; according to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, to constitute a

heretic, contumacy in error with respect to matters of faith is necessary; and where there is not a contumacious adherence to error in matters of faith, there is no heresy.

Would not that character of heresy apply then to all churches which have separated from the see of Rome, and continued to deny its authority?-No; I do conceive that there are many, who are not of the Roman Catholic communion, whom, when it is their conscientious belief that they are not denying any thing which is essential to salvation, and that they have no means of having their error removed, I do not by any means consider as heretics, though they may not belong to the visible body of the Roman Catholic church.

Is it in the power of the Pope to 'grant a dispensation from observing an oath ?-The Pope can grant no dispensation from observing a lawful oath.

Although the Catholic church would regard many of the members of the Protestant establishment as heretics, it does not necessarily regard them all as heretics, on account of their differing from the Roman Catholic church?-Not by any means.

All members of the Church of England believe in the same articles of faith, then how do you draw a distinction between those whom you say you would call heretics belonging to the Church of England, and those whom you say you would not call heretics belonging to the same church?—I have already mentioned that, in order to constitute a heretic, contumacy in error concerning matters of faith, is necessary; I think there are many who are invincibly ignorant of those articles of faith which we hold to be es sential, and their being unacquainted with them, and having no opportunity of removing the error under which they labour, is a sufficient ground for not considering them as heretics.

Do you mean by your past evidence to state, that you conceive that all members of the Church of England believe the same doctrine, or that there is not a considerable difference of opinion among members of the Church of England?—I do not pretend to say, that all members of the Established Church hold the same articles of faith.

Will you be good enough to explain to the Committee, what you mean by the word Contumacy ?-A refusal on the part of an individual to embrace doctrines necessary to salvation, after having had a sufficient opportunity of being convinced of their truth.

If a person was not conscientiously convinced of the necessity of believing such doctrine, would you consider him contumacious? -If his ignorance was voluntary, I should consider him contumacious; if his ignorance was involuntary and invincible, I should consider him free from the guilt of contumacy.

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