Page images
PDF
EPUB

not; but it is a subject I am not acquainted with, from my having chiefly resided in Dublin.

From what you have understood of the state of the disturbed districts, do you not suppose that the disturbances there proceeded from the general condition of the peasantry, and from other circumstances not connected with the profession of the Roman Catholic faith?-I believe, from their extreme poverty, which made them feel the pressure of those things more than elsewhere; but I am not sufficiently acquainted with those parts of the country where disturbances took place.

Do you think that what is called Catholic Emancipation would at all reconcile the peasantry and farmers of Ireland to the payment of tithes?-I think it would diminish their repugnance

to it.

Do you think it would make them more satisfied under those burdens, than they are at present?-I am certain it would remove a great source of discontent, and put them of course in a better temper, and induce them to acquiesce more readily in all the burdens the State imposes on them.

Is not that feeling of discontent connected in some degree with the disturbances which have taken place ?-I fancy it is.

[ocr errors]

Are you at all acquainted with the operation of the Tithe composition Bill?-Not at all; I have heard that where it has been carried into operation, the effect has been favourable; but I am not personally acquainted with any case in which it has been carried into effect.

Have you heard that it has had the effect of removing the pressure from the small holders of land who paid the tithe of potato, to a general burden upon all the land ?-I have heard so, that it divides the burden more equally, and relieves the poorer classes.

Have you formed any opinion as to the operation of the law with respect to Church Rates in Ireland ?—I have had no oppor◄ tunity of forming an opinion upon that subject.

Have you heard any complaints made by the poorer classes, of the burden which is imposed upon them, of repairing the churches of the Established religion?—I have heard that there were complaints of that nature, particularly where there were very few Protestants, and where the chief burden was to be borne by

Roman Catholics.

Has that been the cause of disturbances in any part of the country?—I am not aware whether it has or not.

Upon subjects of that nature, your constant residence in Dublin disables you from giving to the Committee that opinion which you would otherwise be able to give, had you lived in the country? It does.

In the event of there existing any dissatisfaction with regard to the payment of church rates, that is, funds for building and repairing Protestant churches, do you not think that that dissatisfaction would cease, if those rates, in place of being charged upon the occupying tenant, became in fact a charge upon the landlord and upon the rent ?-I think it is likely that it would. In case of Catholic Emancipation being carried, would you propose that the Catholics should be allowed to have processions? By no means. Public processions in the street, out of their places of worship, I would not think at all advisable in a country so mixed as ours is, where the different denominations are blended together, and where, of course, one description of persons might receive ground of offence, from those external ceremonies.

You have heard that there have been great objections made against the Church Establishment in Ireland, particularly by Irishmen; do you think that if a great attempt was made to new model the Church Establishment, not to take away its riches, but to allow them that wealth in a different way, that that attempt would be supported by the great body of the Catholics in Ireland? I am not aware that the great body of the Catholics would trouble themselves much about the manner in which it would be employed, provided that the pressure was to continue the same, and that it was to be levied in the same way.

If there was an attempt made to relieve the peasantry of the payment of tithes, and to appropriate the landed property of the Church to the payment of bishops, deans, and clergy, and to the repair of the churches, and to the encouragement of education, and perhaps other purposes connected with church matters; do you think there would be a general feeling among the Catholic population in Ireland, to join such a plan ?-I think there would be a general feeling amongst both Catholics and Protestants, to rejoice at any plan which would remove the people from unnecessary burdens, or to employ the fund in such a way as would be of general service; I do not think the Catholics are more particularly interested in that, than the Protestants.

Then the Committee are to understand you as saying, that it is the burden itself that is oppressive, and not the circumstance of the persons to whom it is paid?-The burden.

Do you think the Catholic population would exert themselves more strongly to get rid of tithe, than they would of the burden of any other tax ?-I do not think they would.

In any opinions you have heard respecting this question of Church reform, which has been pointed at in the latter part of your examination, can you state which you have found most eager and anxious upon the subject, the Protestants or the Ca

tholics ?I think the Protestants are equally anxious with the Catholics.

Is not it your opinion, that any class of men, either Catholic or Protestant, in any country, if they found themselves peculiarly aggrieved by any particular tax, would naturally be very glad to be relieved of that by any means the legislature of the country could possibly provide?-Most certainly.

The Most Reverend Oliver Kelly, D.D. Titular Archbishop of Tuam, called in; and Examined.

How many years have you been Roman Catholic Archbishop of Tuam ?-Since the year 1815.

Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, the nature and origin of the authority of the Pope?-The Pope derives his authority from Jesus Christ. He is the successor of St. Peter, and holds the same rank in the church that St. Peter did among the Apostles; he is the first bishop and head of the church, and enjoys a primacy, not only of honour, but also of jurisdiction.

Is his authority distinctly defined ?-His authority is distinctly defined; and besides the ordinary episcopal power, which he enjoys in common with the other bishops, he has the authority of presiding over the universal church, and of governing it according to the canons.

Does the obedience that is due by a Roman Catholic to the Pope, detract from what is due by a Roman Catholic to the prince under whom he lives?-Not in the slightest degree.

Does it at all justify an objection that is made to Roman Catholics, that their allegiance is divided?-By no means.

Is the duty that a Roman Catholic owes to the Pope, and the duty he owes to the King, really and substantially distinct ?The duty which the Roman Catholic owes to the Pope, and that which he owes to the King under whom he lives, are really and substantially distinct, inasmuch as they regard different matters. The duty which he owes the Pope, is confined to matters spiritual, and affecting ecclesiastical and religious matters. This duty is by no means incompatible or inconsistent with his social duties; it does not clash in any manner whatsoever with the civil allegiance which he owes to the King; on the contrary, his bounden duty, as a Catholic, is to pay obedience and submission to the civil authorities.

What do the principles of the Roman Catholic religion teach, in respect of performing civil duties ?-The principles which the Roman Catholic church teaches, with regard to civil duties, are, that subjects are to obey the King, and all those placed in au

[ocr errors]

thority under him; they are to be amenable to the laws of the land.

Does the Pope, in point of fact, at present dispose of Temporal affairs within the kingdoms of any of the princes of the Continent? I am not aware that the Pope, at present, interferes in any degree in the temporal concerns of the princes of the Continent.

Has any Pope of late years, at all attempted to interfere in the temporal concerns of the States of Europe?—I do not know that, of late years, any Pope has attempted to interfere in the temporal concerns of independent states.

[ocr errors]

When the Pope did interfere in the temporal concerns of independent states, on what did he found his claim to such interference?-I should think, when he did interfere in temporal concerns, it was in consequence of concessions made to him by temporal princes themselves, and that it was in virtue of the power which he had received from them; but I do not conceive that the Pope, at any period, in virtue of his authority as Pope, did interfere in any manner whatsoever with the temporal concerns of any state.

Was it ever admitted as a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the Pope had any temporal jurisdiction out of the patrimony of St. Peter ?-It never was admitted as a doctrine of the universal church, that the Pope could exercise temporal jurisdiction without the limits of his own territory; there may have been some individuals who held that opinion, but it never could be called or considered the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church.

In point of fact, was not that doctrine resisted by the north of Europe, whilst it was admitted by many persons in the southern countries of Europe?-Most undoubtedly.

And hence the difference between Transalpine and Cisalpine principles ?-The Transalpine and Cisalpine doctrines, in respect to the authority of the Pope, differ; but what we call those doctrines, are doctrines held by individual divines of one country or the other.

Does any such difference now exist in any part of Europe, with regard to temporal power?-I am not aware that there is a Catholic divine in existence at present, who holds the doctrine of the Pope having temporal power or authority over independent

states.

Do the Roman Catholic clergy insist, that all the bulls of the Pope are entitled to obedience ?-The Roman Catholic doctrine, in respect to bulls from the Pope, is, that they are always to be treated with respect; but if those bulls or rescripts, proceeding from the Pope, do contain doctrines or matters which are not

compatible with the discipline of the particular churches to which they may be directed, they feel it their duty then to remonstrate respectfully, and not to receive the regulations that may be contained in the bull or rescript which may emanate from the Pope. Do Roman Catholics pray to Saints ?-Roman Catholics believe that the blessed saints in heaven, replenished with charity, pray for us their fellow members here on earth. Roman Catholics believe, that the saints, seeing God, they see and know in him all things suitable to their happy state; that God may be inclined to hear requests made in our behalf by them, and to grant us many favours through their intercession. This manner of invocation is no more injurious to Christ, our Mediator, than it is for one Christian to beg the prayers of another in this world, as Saint Paul did.

When Roman Catholics are said to pray to the Virgin Mary, what is the meaning of that expression?-When they invoke the Virgin Mary, they do not consider that she can grant favours of herself, but that she may, through her powerful intercession, obtain favours from God for us.

Do Roman Catholics pay veneration to Images and Relics?— Roman Catholics allow a certain veneration, or honour, to be given to relics, and to the images of Christ, and his saints who have departed this life in the odour of sanctity; and they consider images useful, inasmuch as they may occasionally remind them of certain subjects and points of doctrine and religion, which may be most conducive to their spiritual welfare; but they renounce all adoration and divine worship of images and pictures. The Almighty alone they worship and adore, and pictures are used to excite our thoughts to heavenly things.

Do the Roman Catholics consider those images or relics as possessing sense or intelligence?-Not the least sense or intelligence; and the honour or respect given to pictures and images, or relics of those pious persons who lived here on earth, has reference only to the character represented.

They consider, that they may be useful in reminding them of circumstances connected with religious duties ?-Exactly so.

Beyond that, they attach no importance to them?-None.

It is stated in a publication called A Protestant Catechism, showing the principal errors of the church of Rome, that "Roman Catholics pray to angels and saints, to intercede for them, and save them by their merits;" is that a correct statement?Not by any means; saints or angels cannot save us by their merits, except so far as they may be available in their intercession with the Divine Mediator.

Do they invoke angels or saints, with the same spirit with which they invoke the interference of our Saviour?-Not by any

« PreviousContinue »