Such a decision as would make you feel yourself authorized in assenting to an arrangement of that kind?-Certainly a decision binding in honour, not having been recalled, he is bound by it in the same way as a subsequent government in this country, would be bound by the acts of the preceding government.

Are you aware whether the Catholic prelates in Ireland consider themselves sufficiently authorized by that decision, to cooperate in an arrangement of that sort, without further application to the Holy See?—They do.

Do you remember the rescript of a person called Quarantotti? -Perfectly well.

Did not the Roman Catholic prelates protest against that rescript?-Very earnestly.

On what ground?-On the ground that it allowed a certain interference in the appointment of the Catholic bishops in Ireland, which interference they thought would be injurious to the Catholic religion.

That rescript acknowledged the principle of a royal veto?— It did.

It went no further?-And also the principle of inspecting correspondence.

What they objected to was giving the Crown a veto?-Yes. Did they consider that as coming from the Pope himself, or only from Quarantotti ?-Only from Quarantotti, and a very limited council, which was left under the dominion of the French authorities in Rome. He was a very weak old man, and he had himself incurred the displeasure of the Pope during his captivity, by having taken an oath of allegiance to the French authorities, always guarding, however, as he thought, his allegiance to the Pope. However, it was still such as to incur the displeasure of the Pope, and the latter would not for some time admit him into his presence.

Had that rescript come from Pius the Seventh himself, would the Roman Catholic prelates have equally protested against it ?Most certainly.

Would they have protested against it on the ground that the Pope had exceeded his power?-On the ground that he had exceeded the limits of prudence and discretion, that he was not sufficiently acquainted with the circumstances of our country; and of course that we could not conscientiously help submitting this fact, and reminding him of the danger to which he exposed our religion.

Would you have protested against it, on the ground that he had exceeded the power vested in him, as the successor of St. Peter?-No.

They would not protest against it, on the principle that he had done any thing contrary to the discipline of the church; but, that

considering the situation of the Catholic church in Ireland, what he had done was opposed to the interest of the church ?--That it was contrary to our discipline.

Not contrary to the fundamental principles of the Catholic church? You may say there is no fundamental discipline of that kind, because that discipline may be changed.

Are you aware whether there has or not been any arrangement made in other countries, in which Protestant sovereigns have exercised a power equal or similar to that which it was proposed by that rescript to convey to the King of England?—I am not aware that there are any such powers in the hands of any Protestant sovereign.

Is there a power of nomination vested in any Protestant sovereign?--There is no power of nomination recognised in any Protestant sovereign.

Are you aware how it stands in the kingdom of Prussia?—

I am.

Will you have the goodness to state that?-At present, in virtue of a concordat which was established a very few years ago, the nomination is vested in the Catholic chapters of Prussia; and the king of Prussia has given an endowment or establishment to the clergy.

Is there no right of interference?—No right of interference, that I am aware of; I have seen the decree.

He has no privilege of a veto?—None, that I am aware of.

Has the emperor of Russia any such right?-He has not; but the emperor of Russia being the head of a despotic government, recommends a certain individual to the Pope; and the Pope, that the Catholics of that country may not be persecuted, if he finds no canoncial objection to the individual, appoints that individual of his own authority, without any reference whatever to the recommendation of the emperor; he studiously avoids saying that such a person had ever been presented; in the fulness of his own authority he appoints him; but he is pleased to appoint the son so presented, if he feels no objection to him. It was the same in the kingdom of Prussia, before the concordat which I have just mentioned. The king of Prussia named a certain individual; the character and qualities of that individual were examined into; if the Pope saw no difficulty, he appointed him; but he made the nomination in the fulness of his own power, without any reference to the presentation.

per

In those cases it is a species of compromise between the court of Rome and the courts of Prussia and of Russia ?-Just so; the Pope does not wish to enter into collision with those sovereigns, and he therefore allows it to go on in that

way.

Has the King of Prussia any thing resembling a congé d'elire, in the appointment to the chapters ?-Not that I am aware of. Do you think it would be injurious to the Catholic church, if he had one? It would be perhaps less injurious than in some other countries, because Silesia, the country chiefly in question, is principally Catholic, and not distracted by party feeling; that is quite a matter of prudence, to be regulated according to the circumstances of the place.

Supposing what is called Catholic Emancipation were passed, and that a provision were made for the Roman Catholic clergy; and that, in consequence of that provision, the Pope was to grant to the King of England the power of appointing the bishops of the Roman Catholic church, would the Roman Catholic prelates consent to that?-I do not think they would; and I am quite certain that the Pope would not grant, to any Protestant sove. reign whatever, a power of direct nomination.

Are you aware that the King of Prussia has actually appointed to the Bishoprics of Culm and Posen?-I am quite aware that his recommendation has been attended to, but on the principle I have just mentioned, disallowing the right of the King of Prussia to nominate; but still the individual recommended, has been in general named by the Pope from his own authority, without alluding, in the bull of appointment, to the presentation that was made: that system has been changed, the nomination is now vested in the chapters.

But suppose the Pope did make such a concession to the king of this empire, what would be the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, under such circumstances?-I cannot say what would be their conduct, but I think it would excite a very painful sensation, and might lead to very disastrous consequences; but I think it is almost an impossible case. It has never occurred that such concordat has been entered into by the Pope with any Protestant prince.

Does it enter into your mind, as a part of Catholic Emancipation, that the Roman Catholic bishops should take their seats in the House of Lords?-By no means; the bishops of the Established church take their seats in the House of Lords, as barons, which dignity they have from the Crown; we can have no claim to such a dignity.

Have you any reason to think, that in the minds of any part of the Roman Catholic clergy, there exists any hope or any wish to interfere with the temporal possessions of the Established church?

Not the least; there is no wish, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, to disturb the present establishment, or to par take of any part of the wealth that it enjoys.

Nor any objection to give the most full and entire assurance on that subject, by any declaration that may be required of them?Not the least.

Do not you think, that if there was an establishment for the Roman Catholic clergy provided by the State, that would afford an argument to those who object, that they being Catholics, should pay for the Protestant clergy, as Protestants might then say, We who are Protestants, pay for the Catholic clergy ?-I think that would be a very powerful argument.

Though the Catholic clergy of Ireland might not wish to interfere with the property of the Protestant church, is it not a general feeling among the Catholics, and general indeed amongst a great many of the Protestant communion also, that the esta blishment of the church of Ireland should be very much cur tailed; that there should be a new modelling of it? It is a general feeling, among Catholics as well as Protestants, that the establishment is unnecessarily rich; but I do not observe any feeling in Catholics as Catholics, to exert themselves for its curtailment, more than Protestants.

That feeling is rather an opinion of political economy, than a religious feeling? Exactly so; as religionists they have no particular feeling.

Is it not their disposition to leave the matter entirely with the legislature ?—Yes.

Do not the Catholics complain very much of the obligation of paying tithes to Protestant clergymen ?-They complain in common with Protestants, and they have this additional ground of complaint, that they receive no service for it.

Is not that urged as a very strong and very general argument, against the establishment and continuance of tithes in Ireland ? It is a complaint, that they have to pay two churches, from one of which they derive no return. According to an idea thrown out, in a question which has been put to me, it would seem, that in the event of emancipation, they would not have to pay from their own pockets exclusively, their own clergy, and of course then there would be a greater disposition to bear with patience the burden of supporting the Protestant clergy.

Have not the disturbances on the subject of tithes in Ireland, which have been very numerous indeed, and existing from a very remote period, prevailed more generally in Catholic countries, than in those counties where Protestants were more numerous ?I believe they have, but I do not feel myself very competent to answer the question, for I am not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of those disturbances, or the causes from which they arose.

As far as you are acquainted with them, do you not believe that the disturbances with respect to tithes, have chiefly taken

place in those parts of Ireland where the tithe of potatoes was collected?-I understand so. I am not myself particularly acquainted with any part of Ireland where those disturbances nave taken place.

-

Is not the tithe upon potatoes the greatest cause of dissatisfaction connected with the tithe system? So I have heard; because that is a tithe levied off the poorest classes of the community.

Then in the event of disturbances with respect to tithe, having taken place in particular counties in Ireland, do you connect those disturbances with the circumstance of the inhabitants of those counties being Catholics, or with the circumstance that in those counties, the tithe of potatoes was claimed?-I think it more likely that they arose from the nature of the tithe, and from the manner of collecting it.

Have not you found, or have not you collected from your observation, that the insurrections in different parts of the south and west of Ireland, have been directed, as much against the payment of dues to the Roman Catholic clergy, as against the payment of tithe to the Protestant ?-They have often been so directed against the dues paid to the Catholic clergy, as well as against the tithes paid to the Protestant clergy.

Are there not lay impropriators in Ireland, who receive tithes as well as the clergy?—I understand so.

In that case, is any return made to the persons paying?—No

return.

Do you suppose, that if the legislature chose to take away tithe from the clergy of the Established church, and to pay them in any other way, that they would make a present of the tithe to the land owners?—I do not know what the legislature might be inclined to do under those circumstances, but I believe the people feel as great an indisposition to pay tithe to a lay impropriator, as to an ecclesiastic.

Are they not sensible, that it is a burden upon the property which they hold, whether it is paid to the church or to the laity ?-Yes.

Do not you think that the Protestant clergy find as much difficulty in getting the tithe from Protestant parishioners, as from Roman Catholic parishioners?—I have heard so, and very often more difficulty.

Why would you say, more difficulty ?-From their being more able to resist.

You have not found, so far as your observation, or any thing you have heard, lead you to form an opinion, that a resistance to the payment of tithe, prevails more amongst Roman Catholic parishioners, than amongst Protestant parishioners ?-No, I do