office; at the same time I beg to remark, that there is no class of men who could be possibly employed at home in our church, who would be so much attached to this country and its institutions, as those who had lived abroad. I myself never would have loved the British Constitution so much as I do, had I not been acquainted with the forms of government which prevail in the countries where I have resided. It is by comparison with other institutions, that the excellence of our own is best known; and I would wish that many people might travel abroad, and compare what prevails in foreign countries, with what prevails at home. amongst those who enjoy a full participation of our admirable constitution.

You have already said, that any objection growing out of those reasons is rather of a political nature, than growing out of the Catholic religion?-It is chiefly of a political

nature.

If the question, commonly called Catholic Emancipation, were carried, are you of opinion, that religious differences would cease to agitate the public mind in Ireland ?—I am very confident they would.

Do the lower orders of the Irish take much interest in the question of the penal laws?-I know no class or description of people in Ireland who do not feel a very strong interest in the repeal of the penal laws; those, perhaps, who understand the nature of them least, are most anxious for their repeal.

Is it your opinion, that the question of Catholic Emancipation has excited a general interest among the lower orders of the Catholics in Ireland?-As far as I am acquainted with the lower orders of the people, and I am acquainted with them extensively, I do not suppose there is a man, a woman, or even a child, who thinks upon any subject, who does not feel an interest in the question of Catholic Emancipation.

Is it not known to you that a copy of the Catholic petition that has been presented to Parliament, is hung up very generally at the present time, in the cabins of the Irish peasantry? -I dare say it is.

If an impression exists amongst the public in England, that the lower orders in Ireland do not feel deeply interested in the success of the Catholic question, do not you suppose that impression to be an erroneous one?-Unquestionably it is erroneous.

Is not the exclusion of the higher orders of Catholics from the highest offices of the State considered by the lower orders of Catholics, as a mark of infamy and degradation affixed on their whole body?-It is so considered by them.

What effect do you conceive the carrying of emancipation will have upon the tranquillity of the country?—I think, if

emancipation were carried, that the whole of the Catholic population would consider their grievances, as it were, at an end, and those obstacles which exist to the improvement of their condition, and the general interest of the country, as removed; and that they would look with great confidence, and at the same time with unwearied patience, for the improvement of their own condition. I am also quite confident it would produce in them a feeling of satisfaction, of confidence and affection towards government, greater than has ever been experienced almost in any country.

What effect do you conceive Catholic Emancipation would have, in inducing the feelings of the country to turn, and become established in favour of the connexion between Ireland and England?-I think the carrying of the measure would make every man in Ireland sit down quite secure, to devote his time and his attention to his own interests, and the great interests of the country at large; and I do think, that the people of England, finding Ireland tranquil and likely to continue so, would then naturally turn their attention to that country, travel into it, view its beauties, become acquainted with its natural resources, and be induced to vest their capital and employ their skill in the improvement of it.

You have had, as a Roman Catholic bishop, much opportunity of intercourse with the Roman Catholic bishops and clergy, and of speaking to them on subjects connected with their religion, as it affects the State; upon the entire of your communication with them, have you any reason to think that there is any wish or object, on their part, hostile to the Protestant established religion?-I have never discerned in any class, or in any individual of the Catholic religion, either clergy or laity, I might say, any disposition hostile to the Protestant established religion; on the contrary, I know they have frequently deplored with me, the progress of sectaries; and that the characters of the Protestants were likely to be changed, by many of them falling off from the Established Church. Have you read a recent publication, entitled, "Letters on the State of Ireland, by J. K. L. ?"-I have seen it.

Do you hold the same opinions, with respect to the Established church, with the author of those letters ?-I dare say I do.

Do you hold the same opinion, with respect to the elective franchise and the effect of attempts to disfranchise the 40s. freeholders, which are held by the author of those letters? Upon that subject, as I happen to be an ecclesiastic, if the Committee would indulge me by permitting me not to express

an opinion, they would favour me much. In this place I would wish, that any testimony I am called upon to give should not be of a political kind; for if ever I took a part in political discussions, it was with great reluctance, and only until the difficulties under which the country laboured enabled me to return to that privacy in which I always wish to live. To give an opinion as to the 40s. freeholders would be rather a political one, than one connected with religion; therefore if the Committee will indulge me in my own inclination, I should much rather not give an opinion; merely for this reason, that it is a political question, and that I am an ecclesiastic.

The opinions, with respect to the Established church that are maintained in those letters, are opinions held by you?-My opinions, with regard to the Established church, if by the Es tablished church is meant the temporal establishment of it, unquestionably are those which are expressed there; but if by the Established church is understood a church of religionists, professing a certain religious creed, I esteem them in that character more than any description or class of Christians in the universe, outside my own church.

When the Committee ask, whether those opinions are held by you, they mean, of course, to include any qualification that may be contained in those letters ?-I made the distinction, lest as there may appear in that work, to which the Committee have alluded, a strong feeling of opposition to the establishment of the church; my answer might go to convey an impression to the Committee, and through the evidence, to the public, that I am as hostile to the establishment, in a religious point of view, as the writer of the letters seems to be to the temporal goods of the Established church; in a word, I have a high esteem, and the highest respect for the whole constitution of the Established church, and even for many of its clergy; but the same feelings that I have for the constitution of the church, and for many of its clergy, and for those who profess the creed of the Establish ment, I have not towards the temporalities of that Establish ment in Ireland.

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Have you any objection to state your opinion, with respect to the title of the bishops of the church of England to the exercise of their ecclesiastical powers ?-It is an article of the Catholic creed, may call it an article of our creed, that communion with the Holy See is necessary for the rightful exercise of spiritual juris diction in the church; and as the Established church is not in communion with the see of Rome, I would cease to be a Catholic, if I did not say, that I believed they want that spiritual jurisdiction which is only found in the body of the Catholic church. That is a tenet of my religion as a Catholic, still they

may be validly ordained, and they have certainly a legal, just, and good right, to the property they hold.

Do you deny the spiritual character of the bishops of our church?—I do not deny the spiritual character of the bishops of any church, because it is the ordination that gives the spiritual character; but the spiritual character is one thing, and the exercise of a spiritual jurisdiction is another. I can best illustrate it by what I was speaking of just now regarding a priest, who, when he is ordained, receives as it were a radical power to administer the sacrament of penance, or to absolve sinners who are contrite from their guilt; but unless he get jurisdiction from the bishop to exercise that power within a certain district, or over certain individuals, he cannot exercise it. So in like manner I consider, that in the Established church the bishops may be real bishops, as much so as I am myself; but I think the spiritual jurisdiction whereby they can administer, for instance, the power of absolving the sinner from his guilt, they cannot have outside the Catholic church. It is therefore that I think that the separation of the church of England from the church of Rome is a most lamentable misfortune; but that opinion I entertain as a Catholic, whilst a Protestant gentleman, of infinitely more learning and greater knowledge, may think that my opinion upon the subject is quite idle.

Is the regular apostolic succession of importance, in that respect, to the spiritual character of a prelate?-Not with regard to the spiritual character of the prelate, but it is with regard to the exercise of spiritual jurisdiction; they are two things essentially distinct; the one depends upon order, the other depends upon being united with the Catholic church, and receiving mission through it.

In the case of the conformity of a bishop of the Established religion, to the Roman Catholic faith, would he be regarded by the Roman Catholic church as possessing the character of a bishop? In the Roman Catholic church, there is a gradation of orders; in the Established church you recognise three, bishops, priests, and ministers; we have bishops, priests, and ministers; but this rank of minister contains four lesser orders. Now, it is a universal practice with our church, that when a person comes from another church, who has not had his ordination through each of those orders, that we either ordain him altogether again, under condition, or that we supply what was omitted in the ordination or ritual of the church to which he had belonged. Thus, if a Greek bishop, whom we certainly recognise to be a bishop as much as we are ourselves, came to us, we would supply all those defects, which we conceive to have occurred in his ordination and consecration, So in like manner, if a bishop of the Established

church of England were to pass over to ours, as the ritual of the Established church differs from ours, we would supply in like manner the defects that may have occurred; and as something respecting the Lambeth records is doubtful to us, we on that account, that there might be no doubt afterwards with regard to the validity of his ordination, make him pass through the entire ordination; but by doing so you will perceive that we pass no judgment upon the validity of his former ordination, we only consider that a certain fact has rendered the succession, even of orders, doubtful amongst the clergy of the Established church; and whenever a doubt exists, we would remove it entirely from the Christian ministry, and re-ordain under condition. For example, if a child be exposed at the door of my parish chapel, it may have been baptized before, as it probably was, but yet lest it was not, I take it, and baptize it under condition; so in like manner, if a bishop caine to our church, with regard to whose ordination I have any the slightest doubt, I ordain him again under condition, lest by possibility he might not have been ordained; and then that the acts performed by him in the discharge of his ministry might become invalid, to the great detriment of souls.

Suppose you had the most positive testimony that the child, so exposed, had been previously baptized by a minister of the Church of England, in that case should you go through the process again?-No; the baptism of a minister in the Church of England is as good as that of the Pope.

The repetition of the ceremomy would only be in the case of a doubt ?Only in the case of a doubt.

Supposing you were perfectly certain of the ordination of the bishop of the Established church, would it still be necessary to re-ordain him, in order to convey to him the rank of bishop in the Roman Catholic church ?-No; but it would be necessary to do with him as we do with the Greek bishops, to supply the defects which occurred in his ordination, namely, to supply those four minor orders which are omitted in the Protestant ceremony. Would any ceremony of episcopal ordination have to be gone through ?-By no means.

Would he then have the power of conferring orders in the Catholic church, as a bishop?-By all means he would.

Are there any Roman Catholic prelates in Ireland, who have the order of bishops, but who are not attached to any diocese, either as bishop or coadjutor?-Not one; nor have there been for several centuries.

Was not the late Lord Dunboyne bishop of Cork ?-He separated from us, and he remained bishop during his life.