in respect of the Protestant church establishment in Ireland? -I firmly believe the Catholic body have no desire whatever to intermeddle with it; when I say intermeddle, I mean to disturb it, or to appropriate any part of it, to divert it from the establishment; but, in common with the Protestants, they would wish to be relieved from a portion of the burden of it. Have you, in the conversations at meetings of Catholics, or communications with Catholics, ever heard any speculation advanced of a change in that establishment being desirable to the Catholics of Ireland?-Never; nor do I believe the Catholics either wish or desire it.

Do the Catholics feel that that church has been established permanently by the settlement of the Union?—I think they do.

On your own part, and the part of those with whom you are acquainted, do you think there is any desire to interrupt this settlement?-For my own part, I have no wish to interrupt that settlement; and I believe that is the feeling of all those with whom I am connected or acquainted.

Is your belief of the opinion you have just expressed formed from conversations and communications on the subject generally with the Catholics ?-Formed from repeated conversations with the respectable Catholic proportion of the people had repeatedly on the subject, and hearing their opinions accord completely with my own.

Are the Committee to understand, that you have collected this from repeatedly conversing with them on the reasonableness or permanency of the church establishment of Ireland ?— From repeated conversations, the consequence of the discussion of our question in both Houses of Parliament, and the establishment being so much introduced, as a desirable thing on the part of our body to destroy, break down, or invade.

Supposing the Catholic question to be carried, is it a matter of speculation or at all desired, that the Catholic bishops should be allowed to sit in Parliament ?-I for myself can say, and all those with whom I am intimately connected, most sincerely desire that they shall not; we hold it to be a place not exactly suited for such characters, and I never hope to see any of them in it; they may easily be better employed.

Have you understood, that there has been a question with regard to a veto on the Crown in the appointment of Catholic bishops; do you think that an objection to that measure generally pervades the Roman Catholics throughout Ireland?— That is a very delicate question; there is a great variety of opinions upon it; under the existing circumstances of the condition of the Catholics I can only give my own opinion, if it is thought worthy of being had; I should be exceedingly

sorry to concede to the Crown, under the present existing circumstances, any interference, directly or indirectly, with the appointment of our bishops.

Do you believe that to be the general opinion of the Catholics? I believe it to be so; but if the question of emancipa, tion were carried, and matters became settled and well understood, I have then very little doubt, that a very little time would remove much of the objection, but not the whole, that exists at present to the interference of the Crown in the appointment of our bishops.

Could you state why that objection should exist for the present, supposing the question to be carried, and not to continue after a certain period ?-My own impression is, that circumstanced as the Catholic body is at present, an excluded and proscribed sect in their own country, the Catholics would take up the opinion, that if the Crown had a right of nomination and interference in the appointment of their bishops, their object would be to select unworthy personages for filling the high situations which have been alluded to; but if we become one and the same people, and those obstructions removed, I think the good feeling that would be inculcated would at once show, that the danger now that appears so very strong, would not then exist in reality.

You see no objection then, in point of ecclesiastical discipline, to the interference of the Crown; your objection to the interference would rest on your apprehension of the manner in which the influence might be exercised?-I am under the impression, that it is an ecclesiastical regulation, and that it might be so managed in the event of these matters occurring.

That being the obstacle opposed to Catholic emancipation, how would you propose to remove it in the first instance? -As a Roman Catholic, and communicating with the respectable portion of them, we have always deeply regretted that our emancipation has been so mixed up with ecclesiastical matters; we have always considered it most unfortunate that the questions have not been separated; our earnest wish would be for every possible guard and barrier, and fence and protection to the established church, and that all her rites and immunities should be preserved; but to let the body have their political emancipation, we cannot discover how the exclusion of the laity from corporate rights, from filling the office of sheriffs, and from seats in Parliament, can have any con, nexion whatever with our religious habits and feelings.

Then you do not think that the objection to such ecclesiastical arrangements would proceed from the Roman Catholic laity ?-Nor do I believe that it would from the clergy if

the question was once settled, and matters allowed to come to a proper understanding, which I think they would do in a very little time indeed.

What do you mean by the guards you refer to ?—I mean by that, that I would suppose that it was quite fair and reasonable that the Lord Chancellor of England, and other of the ministers, that those should be exclusively fitted for their stations by taking the test oaths as they stand at present.

You mean, that they should be Protestants?-I do, exclusively so.

Does it appear to you, that the Catholics consider it a grievance to have to support the Protestant clergymen ?—They feel, in common with their Protestant fellow-citizens, the great burden of supporting the Protestant clergy of Ireland; but I have it from several of the rectors, to whom I pay tithe, that the Roman Catholics pay them with greater facility and pleasure than those of their own communion.

Does it occur to you, it would give satisfaction to the Roman Catholic people, if their clergy were rendered more independent by receiving a provision from the state?-I think, as we are now circumstanced, it would not; I think the people's affections would be alienated from them if they were to accept any thing from the Crown.

Do you think they would accept it?-I believe one out of fifty might; but in general I think they would not.

Have the goodness to state the grounds on which you think that would produce an alienation of the people from the priesthood? The expression of the opinion of a large body of Catholic people whom I have heard from time to time speak upon the subject.

Have they stated any reasons why they would not repose the same confidence in a priesthood paid by the state?—Yes; I have heard them state as one, that they conceive they would not be so attentive to their religious duties as they are at the present moment; that they would be more obedient and obsequious to persons in power, than attentive to their religious duties.

Would those objections be removed by the question of emancipation being settled?—I have already stated, that I think they would.

How does it occur to you, that the priesthood would be less obsequious or more attentive to their duties if Catholic emancipation were granted?—Because the people would then receive, I conceive, equal advantages, by being admitted to a participation of the blessings of the British constitution.

Do you not think such a measure would tend greatly to

alleviate the difficulties and the expenses to which the poor are now put in Ireland ?-I think the poor people would prefer the trifle, the miserable and trifling pittance they do give, to having the clergy paid by the Crown at the present moment.

Can you state what is given ?-I believe I can; at Easter time and at Christmas time, the adults of the poorer classes usually give from five to ten pence per head; and in a great many instances, nothing whatever. The better classes go on from 2s. 6d. to 5s. half-yearly; and in a very few instances, the clergyman may have a pound half-yearly from the better class of Catholics, who usually accompany it with a little oats for the maintenance of his horse, probably a barrel, or, I believe, in most cases not exceeding two. At christenings they have very small dues from the poorer people, and very often perform them without any fee; the better class may give them from half-a-crown to half-a-guinea or a pound. At interments they usually get a fee, something about a pound, from the most respectable; and downwards, to very small sums. At marriages it is usual to have what is termed bride cake; and at a respectable marriage, a clergyman may get from five pounds to ten or fifteen pounds, each person gives a pound, or whatever he pleases. I believe these to be the principal sources from which they derive their emolu

ments.

What do they get at the marriages of the poorest people?I think I have heard from half-a-guinea to one pound ten shillings.

What do you suppose is the income of the Catholic clergyman of your own parish ?-It has been considered the best parish by much in the diocese; the priest died about two months back, and the parish is now divided into two. Heretofore it was considered to produce better than 400l. a year; now that will make for each parish priest, as I am informed, and I believe correctly, something about 2007. a year.

What number of curates are there?-For this they will maintain one curate for each 2007.; the 2007. includes the whole of the things that come in.

Is the curate maintained exclusively at the expense of the rector? Certainly, the curate has one-fifth of the produce of the parish arising from the dues I have spoken to, the clergyman being obliged to maintain him besides.

What is the general opinion as to the value of the parish to the Protestant rector ?-I can speak positively to that, from being the commissioner in the case; it is something about 440/. a-year, with a charming glebe house, and about 35 acres of very prime land.

Independent of the glebe house and these 35 acres, the Catholic receives as much as the Protestant ?-No, the Catholic receives 2007.; and heretofore the parish of Ballynakill comprised the parishes of Abbeyleix, Ballynakill, and Ballyroan ; now, in Abbeyleix, I believe, the Tithe Bill has not come into operation, but I believe the rector expects above 500l. per an, num, independent of his glebe house and lands; Ballyroan I know, because the Bill has been in operation, I think it is 440. per annum, and Ballynakill cannot be under that sum, but we have yet two years of the average to ascertain.

Ballynakill is the parish which was divided by the Catholic clergyman into two?-Yes.

It paid 4001. a year before it was divided to the Catholic clergyman; what does it pay to the Protestant?-Something more than 1,300l.; for, besides glebe houses and lands, it is composed of the three parishes I have referred to; and Dr. Doyle has divided the parish, thinking 2007. a year enough for a Catholic clergyman.

Then the Catholic clergyman receives about one-third what the Protestant does ?—Yes, independent of the glebe lands and house.

Do you mean to say, that before the division which was made by Dr. Doyle, the Catholic parish or Catholic union was precisely co-extensive with the Protestant?-The Catholic union comprised the parish of Abbeyleix, the parish of Ballyroan, and Ballynakill.

Which was the largest of the two, the Protestant or the Catholic?-The Roman Catholic equalized those three Protestant parishes, and was, in point of extent, fully equal at all events.

How much do you say the Protestant clergyman received out of all these parishes ?-The Protestant rector and vicar of Abbeyleix, will receive, I am informed, under the Tithe Bill, something more than 500l. per annum; in Ballyna. kill the sum will not be under 4407. and I think it likely it may be a little over; and in Ballyroan the Bill is in operation, and the sum agreed for there, I think and believe, is 4407.

And the glebe house besides ?-The glebe house of Abbeyleix and the glebe lands, with the glebe and glebe lands of Ballynakill.

Do the Protestant clergymen reside in either of these glebe houses? The Protestant clergyman of Abbeyleix has always resided in his parish; I believe his curate resides in the glebe house; the Protestant clergyman of Ballynakill having been lately appointed, intends, I have heard, residing in his glebe

house.