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can possibly be made; further, we being thus incorporated with the State, and our affections secured to the King and his government, we would be enabled to render to both much greater services, than we could if by a provision, such as has been alluded to, we were connected with them by law, as the nature of the church is to connect itself, perhaps too closely, with the Crown; when it does so, it more or less loses the confidence which the people should have in their religious teachers, finding them not only men of religious characters, but also men who have political interests. If you leave our church unconnected by especial agreement with the Crown, you leave us to exercise over a country that is somewhat distant from the seat of government, a most salutary and wholesome influence, an influence which we would exercise naturally; because, by the exercise of it, we would only be confirming the principles of our own church, and labouring for the security and eminence of the State to which we belong. If, on the contrary, you bind us to you by an arrangement of that external kind which has been mentioned, you may make us strongly attached to you, but in proportion as you connect us more closely with you, you will remove from us, and thereby remove from the State, the people over whom we exercise jurisdiction; so that whilst you seek by such an arrangement to secure our useful influence, you in fact weaken that influence where it could be advantageously applied for you. And I am convinced in my soul, I never spoke without sincerity, but I never spoke more from the fulness of my heart than I do at this present moment-that if we were freed from the disabilities under which we labour, we have no mind, and no thought, and no will, but that which would lead us to incorporate ourselves fully and essentially with this great kingdom; for it would be our greatest pride to share in the glories and the riches of England. Whilst then we are, as prelates of the Catholic church, jealous of the interference of the Crown, I think it may be collected from the sentiments I delivered on a former day, and on this, that we are not less jealous of the interference of the Pope; we are zealous for the independence of our church, and we do not like that either the Pope should interfere with it beyond what is necessary for preserving the Catholic communion, nor do we like that an interference of the Crown should be established in the appointment of our prelates, which would weaken our influence with the people; an interference which, under a bad minister, (and there have been bad ministers in every state,) might be made use of to put into places of great responsibility, men who would be unfit to fill thein, either to the advantage of religion or for the benefit of the State. Entertaining, then, as I do, these notions which I have expressed, I must feel, and I do say that, in my opinion, the best security we can offer, and the most effectual one that could be required of us, is, that our prelates be of a domestic kind ; that the election of them be made by men resident in the country, and who are British subjects; and that there be no further interference with them, than that interference which would result from all persons concerned in such elections taking the oath of allegi. ance; and that they would elect only such persons as would be loyal and peaceable, and likely to discharge the trust reposed in them, in a manner useful to the State, and honourable to their calling. · In the course of your last examination, you stated that if a provision should be made by the State, for the Roman Catholic prelacy, you would refuse to receive it, unless it was made irrevocable by law, excepting in the case of a conviction of the prelate receiving it in a court of law, of some known offence ?_That is what I stated. . . You also stated, that if the court of Rome should agree, by any convention with the crown of England, to give any interference, direct or indirect, over the appointment of the prelacy in Ireland, you, for one, after trying the effect of a solemn protest, would still rather abdicate your functions as a prelate, than submit to any such arrangement ?-Indeed I would ; I would state at the same time, that I have no attachment to the office which I hold ; and that, independent of such a cause, I would cheerfully resign it ; but unquestionably I would resign it rather thạn be a party, in any way, to a concordat, in which a right to interfere in the appointment of the bishops would be vested in the Crown. · Do you think that such a right as the crown of England ex. ercises in the province of Lower Canada, is entirely inadmissible in Ireland ?-I am not acquainted with the nature of the influence which it exercised there ; but I should think, that it would not be unreasonable that a greater right would be vested in the Crown, with regard to responsible officers placed in a distant colony, than with regard to a bishop in Ireland, who is mixed up with a community which forms a component part of the empire itself.
Do you think, in case such a provision as that which has been referred to were made, that it would be possible that there should be any control on the part of the Crown over the admission of bulls, rescripts, and other documents from the see of Rome, into Ireland I know that in 1821, when a bill, regulating the matter, was introduced into one of the houses
of Parliament, some strong objections were raised to it in Ireland. At that time I had very little experience in those things; and on that account, I scarcely ventured to give an opinion amongst my brethren in Ireland ; however, the opinion which I did entertain then was, that the subjection of this correspondence to a board was not a matter to be oba jected to; because I thought, if things were arranged amicably between the Catholics of Ireland and the British government, that one of the bishops in Ireland probably, or if not, a nuncio, sent from Rome, would be placed in Ireland or in London ; and that this person would be enabled to transact the routine business which is carried on between the court of Rome and us; and therefore I thought that this bill would be a dead letter; whereas another mode of transacting that business could be so easily adopted, which would be advantageous to all parties ; but if the government should entertain any jealousy whatever of the correspondence which passes between Rome and us, I, for my part, and I can only speak as an individual, 'might have no objection whatever, that all the letters and communication which should pass between the court of Rome and me, should be subjected to the inspection of any ecclesiastics whóm the government might think proper to name.
Do you mean ecclesiastics of the Roman Catholic religion? -I assure' the Committee, I should not care who were to compose the Board, if they were all laymen, if they were all secretaries of state ; for my part, I have never received any communication from Rome, nor ever will receive any which I would hesitate to exhibit upon any of the public places of London, so that, upon that matter, I, as an individual, feel perfectly quiet ; however, I do not say that the other Catholic prelates think as I do about it.
Under the constitution of the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, as it stands at present, could a foreigner be appointed to exercise the functions of a bishop ?-I mentioned on a former day, and I repeat now, that the Pope has in him a naked right of appointing whom he pleases to a see in Ire. land ; but I added then, and I repeat now, that we are not to suppose that he would attempt to intrude into our church an individual who was not recommended to him from Ireland. If he did so, I will not presume to say that such person would not be received, but, however, I think it would be extremely difficult for him to take possession of his jurisdiction, or to administer in it the laws of the church. The Committee will be pleased to observe, that I recognise in the Pope the naked right to do so; but yet I think the exercise of that right is morally impossible.
Do you recollect any instance within the last thirty years, in which a foreigner has been appointed to a see in Ireland ?
Not one ; there has not been a foreigner appointed to a see in Ireland, as I recollect, since about the middle of the seven, teenth century; there might have been one then, but only one, nor am I certain that he was appointed. :: Was not there an instance, in the year 1794, of a foreigner being appointed ?-I do not know it; if there was, as there might be, it was not known to me.
By a convention of the government of France with the see of Rome, a provision was made, that no person but a native of France should be appointed to any prelacy within that kingdom ?--A very reasonable provision.
You think there could be no objection to a similar provision with respect to Ireland ?-Undoubtedly not; I should wish it very much ; I think it is most just and reasonable.
Could that provision be made by the Roman Catholic prelates in Ireland, without the consent of the see of Rome ? No; how could we have power to take from the Pope the naked right which we state to exist him; but I believe I mentioned before, and I repeat again, that if matters at home were put into a train of settlement, the British government would find not the least difficulty in entering into a concordat with the Pope, whereby he would relinquish for ever the right to appoint a foreigner to a see in this country.
Do you conceive the oath taken by a Roman Catholic prelate, upon his appointment, could be modified without the consent of the Pope !~Not without the consent of the Pope, but the Pope has already modified it; there was a part of it which was objectionable, some persons did not understand it in the way we did ; this was represented to the Pope, in the life-time of the late Doctor Troy, in Dublin, and a rescript was sent from Rome, whereby such clause of the oath was modified to the satisfaction, I believe, of every person interested about it. If a further modification of the oath, or the substitution of a new one, in place of the old one, were required by the British government of the Pope, I have no doubt whatever he would accede to it, for there is nothing particularly amiable in the oath we take at present; and the object of it could be as well secured by an oath to consist of four lines.
It could not be modified without a previous communication with the see of Rome, and without the consent of the see of Rome -Oh, no, it could not.
You have already said, that the principle of domestic no. mination appears to you to be a reasonable one ?Unquestionably, a reasonable one.
If that could be effected without any violence to any principle of religion, or without interfering in any disrespectful manner with the authority of the Pope, you would think it would be a desirable thing ?-I do think it quite desirable ; to an arrangement of that kind we might give a provisional consent, but only that.
Do you think there would be any objection raised to an arrangement of this kind, suppose the Crown were empowered to appoint a commission, consisting of a certain number of bishops of the Roman Catholic church, and to name that commission from time to time, that then it should be required that no person should hereafter be nominated either to a bishopric or to any function in the Roman Catholic church, unless this commission should certify to the Crown, either as to the loyalty, or as to the domestic appointment and education of that person, or as to all those circumstances ? - It is a matter of so much moment, that I would hesitate to give an opinion about it; I know a commission of that kind is in its nature one that would not be very acceptable to us in Ireland, because we know that ecclesiastics are perhaps as much, if not more, liable to be influenced by the Crown thàn any other description of men; and we would fear, that if any intention hostile to our religion were entertained, those men would become the tools of others in effecting that work; and I think it is a matter that would be objected to strongly by us, though in itself it may be perfectly únobjectionable.
It was not intended in the question, that any power of nomination, or of setting aside the nomination, should grow out of the recommendation of that commission, but only that before the person was admitted to the exercise of those funca tions, that commission should certify that he was a loyal person, and that he was educated at home?-Such arrangement might be perfectly unobjectionable, and I cannot say it would not be so; but this I know, that any thing to be done previous to the appointment of a bishop, would be looked upon in Iré. land with suspicion; and I myself being extremely young com. pared with my brethren, and very insignificant in every point of view, I would think, that as Doctor Curtis and Doctor Murray, who are men of age and experience, and of great weight with their brethren, happen to be in town, it would be much better to take their opinion upon it than mine, be. cause such their opinion would be in itself deserving of greater