Have any obstacles been thrown in the way of the Irish youth repairing to the universities in France?—None whatever, that I am acquainted with.

Have not some of the burses been suppressed?—No.

Have any facilities been offered by the French government? -No facility, that I heard of; the funds belonging to our Irish college in France, or rather the management of them, was for some time past vested in a kind of board at Paris ; and this board consisted of men who mismanaged our property very much; they placed in the seminary there, which belongs to the Irish, men in whose morals or capacity we had no confidence; and whilst the management of the seminary continued in the hands of this bureau, many of the Irish prelates were unwilling to send subjects there. But some short time past, this bureau was dissolved, and the administration of the college vested, I believe, in some person appointed by the King; I do not know but it may have been in one of the secretaries of state; an Irish ecclesiastic, however, who happened to be on business in Paris, was appointed president, and since then, our objections to sending students there have been, I may say, entirely removed. I myself have a right to send there a student, or perhaps two or three, and during the last six years I would not send one at all to Paris, for the reasons I have stated; but I am deliberating at present about sending one or two, on account of the change to which I have adverted.

When sent there, will they receive their education and support without any contribution by themselves or their families? -They will receive their education and support without any contribution, by themselves or their families; but they will receive it, not from the French government or the French nation, but out of funds which originally belonged to Irish families, and which funds were settled in that country, when at home we were not permitted to educate our own youth. Much of those funds was confiscated at the period of the Revolution, but some remnant of them was preserved; and it is this remnant which was restored to us at the time of the general peace, and which it was sought at that time to have transferred to Ireland, but the French government was averse to such translation; and I believe the representatives in France of our own government did not exert themselves very much to obtain the removal of this fund at that period, or they might have succeeded; but, at present, I should think we could not obtain the removal of it from that country to our own.

Can you inform the Committee, what number of students the exhibitions, which are continued in the foreign establish

ments, might suffice to educate, speaking now of the University of Paris?-I cannot speak with much precision to the amount of our funds there, but I should think they may be rather less than 4000l. sterling a-year, besides having a very large college house.

Does that include the exhibitions to which those families in Ireland have a right of presentation ?-It does include such exhibitions.

What means exist in other universities abroad, for the education of Irish youth, in the universities, for instance, of Flanders and Spain ?-There is some income belonging to us at present in Flanders, but it has not been applied hitherto for the purposes of education; whether it will or whether it will not be so applied, I am not at present prepared to say; but except that, we have not upon the Continent any establishment deserving notice, for Irish secular priests; it is likely, however, that we may shortly have one at Rome. The Irish have had at all times past a college in Rome (when I say all times past, I mean from the period of the change in the state of the law in this country), and I think it likely that they would wish to have a college there at present.

When you speak of having funds in Flanders, do you mean French Flanders, or the kingdom of the Netherlands ?—The kingdom of the Netherlands.

What has become of the establishment at St. Omers ?-It was destroyed during the French revolution.

In saying that there were no funds for the education of the clergy, you used the distinction of secular clergy; what funds are there for the education of the regular clergy?—I do not well know; but I know, that as the religious orders in Ireland have each a distinct college at Rome, they must of course have some funds by which such colleges are supported.

Are there no funds in Spain?-There may be some trifling funds at Salamanca in Spain; but I believe they are very small. Having stated that you conceive the French government would now be less inclined to admit the transfer of those sums appropriated for education, than they would have been at the time of the peace; do you mean to suggest to the Committee, that they are now more desirous of establishing the foreign education of Irish priests?-No; the meaning I attached to it then, and what I have at present in my mind is, that our influence with the French government was stronger at the period of the restoration than it can be supposed to be at present, when that government is settled; and as there would be an inclination at all times in a French government to retain in their own guardianship a large mass of property, I should

think that such inclination is strengthened by the circumstance of the government itself having grown strong and secure.

Could you furnish to the Committee, previous to your leaving London, any account of the number of students at the foreign universities, now destined for the priesthood?-It would not be in my power to do so; it is only by application to the several bishops of Ireland, whose subjects are upon the Continent, that such account can be furnished; and even then I doubt whether it would be possible to ascertain the number. I myself have no subject for my diocese in France, but yet there are several individuals of the diocese to whom I have given permission to go abroad, and study. Those individuals are gone to France for that purpose; and when they will have been educated, they can apply to any bishop in any part of the world for ordination. I may not receive them, but they will be received elsewhere, either in this country or in America.

When you mention the three orders that exist in Ireland, do you mean that they have distinct establishments in Ireland; houses belonging to their orders or confraternities there?— They have houses belonging to their orders in Ireland, where the religious live; and they send abroad young men to Rome, who are educated there and come home, and then occupy those houses which they have in Ireland.

What are the three orders ?-There are Dominicans, Franciscans, and Augustinians.

Which is the most numerous of those?-I should think the Franciscans is by much the most numerous.

What duties of the ministry do they perform or assist in performing, in Ireland?—They assist in performing, I might say, every duty of the ministry; they preach, they hear confessions, and they catechise.

How are they supported?-They are supported chiefly, in towns, by collections made at the doors of their chapels on Sundays, from the congregations who assemble to hear mass; and when this is not sufficient, they send some person belonging to their families into the country, and he collects amongst the farmers alms for their support, in kind generally.

Have they no fund or endowment in Ireland?-I believe they have; some more, and some less.

Can you state where?-Almost every house, I should suppose, has more or less of property belonging to it.

Are there many of such establishments !-Yes, there are a good many; in Dublin, I suppose, there are six or seven; in Galway, there are three or four; in Limerick, there is an equal number; in Cork, there is an equal number; in Kilkenny there are, I believe two; and in several small towns there is at least one.

Can you state the number of regular clergy in Ireland ?— I cannot, with any degree of accuracy; but I should suppose there might be about two hundred.

When you state that most of those houses have property, do you mean by that, landed property?-No; interest in houses, and some funded property or monied interest.

Is the establishment for education at Castle Browne, within the diocese of Kildare ?-It is within the diocese of Kildare. Can you inform the Committee how that establishment is conducted ?– It is a school, where young boys are educated.

What is the number of persons in that establishment ?I really cannot say; but I suppose the number of pupils in the establishment exceeds an hundred; probably there may be an hundred and fifty.

At what age are they sent there?—I believe they are received there at the age of ten.

By whom is that establishment conducted ?—There are several clergymen residing in it, the superior of whom seems to be a Mr. Kenny.

By what funds is it supported ?-By the pensions received from those young gentlemen who are educated in it.

Have they not estates or property?-They have purchased the house in which they reside, with a piece of land attached to it; I do not know the number of acres.

Do you know who purchased it; was it Mr. Kenny?-I believe it was Mr. Kenny himself.

Are they of any particular order of ecclesiastics?—It is said that they are Jesuits.

In fact, are you aware whether they are or are not ?—I do believe they are; amongst the Jesuits they are reputed such; but then the Jesuits in these countries are not recognised to exist as a corporation like the other religious orders; and if they be Jesuits, as I believe they are, they do not seem, as far as I can understand, to act in any other capacity than that of individual clergymen collected together; they sometimes exercise the ministry in the diocese of Kildare, but they do so by authority derived from me, and subject to my con

trol.

You do not admit their right virtute ordinis merely as Jesuits? By no means; I do not know in an official way that they are Jesuits at all; I even on one occasion, where it was necessary for me as I thought to know it, applied to Mr. Kenny in an official way, to ascertain whether he was or was not a Jesuit; I have communicated to the Committee the substance of the reply he made to me, in what I have just said.

Have you any reason to doubt that they act under the au

thority of the officers of the order, and the rules of the order, as the members of it have always done?—Within their own walls and in their domestic duties they may do so, but certainly outside of their own house they do not, because they can do nothing in my diocese unless in virtue of authority derived from me; I have over them a full and perfect control in the exercise of their ministry.

When you say they can do nothing, you mean they can perform no function of the ministry? They cannot preach or teach, or celebrate mass outside their own house, unless I commission them to do so.

What is the number of pupils in that establishment ?—I said that I did not know, but I believe it may amount to between a hundred and a hundred and fifty; `it may even exceed a hundred and fifty, but I do not know.

The expense of education there is high, is it not?-I believe their ordinary charge is fifty pounds or guineas a year. Then the class of pupils educated there is necessarily of a high order?—They are very respectable indeed.

Are you aware how many ecclesiastics are employed in the superintendence of this establishment?-I suppose there cannot be fewer than twelve or fourteen.

Are there any foreigners amongst them?-There is one who I believe is a Pole, a simple good man, who has been there for some three or four years past; he seems to be a German or Pole.

The others are Irish ?—The others are all Irish; they have an establishment of a similar nature at Stoneyhurst in Lancashire, and it sometimes happens that individuals from that establishment who are English, go over and reside for some time at Clongowes; I have seen, as I recollect, two or three or four young men who were introduced to me there as Englishmen.

Are you aware of the existence of any other establishment in Ireland, supposed to be conducted by persons of the same society? There is one other in the diocese of Meath, but there is only one or two of those men residing in it; and a small number of young gentlemen of a more tender age.

However, at neither of those place sis any eleemosynary education afforded?—No, nor are there any ecclesiastics educated in either, except their own.

But for the ministry in Ireland, none have been educated at those establishments?-None have been educated at either place.

Have you ever heard of an establishment being about to be founded, or a purchase of land being made in the south of